comment by Robbing_Hoody - putting the bureaucracy into footballism since 1979 (U6374)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc.
-------------
Who's the etc?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Ince....how many chances does he need to get? Great player of course but he bangs on about not getting oppoortinities.
Les Ferdinand....Not once did he take a coaching course at Spurs he held a minor qualification and coached the forwards once a week. Yet has moaned about opportunites. (If he had the qualifications maybe he would be offered more!) Got offered the Swindon town job a few years ago turned it down at the last minute because it was not right for him. Obvs has fallen on his feet at qpr now.
Rio...I have seen rio talk about opportunites. Once he is retired lets see how much difficulty he will have getting a job somewhere....he wont he will walk into one.
I hate the jobs for the boys in football I don't want to see more put in place that rules the best person out for the job whatever there creed, colour or religion.
I think there probably a lot of racism in football boardrooms, it still doesn't mean a bad manager should be given a job because he is black.
So five in history with two being tenuous and I actually think Ince has a point. He's done some good work and has been offered one opportunity in Blackburn which in hindsight was very much a poisoned chalice.
I read an interview with Brian Deane which was interesting. Personally I think institutional racism is alive and well.
comment by Taggs (U1183)
posted 9 seconds ago
I think there probably a lot of racism in football boardrooms, it still doesn't mean a bad manager should be given a job because he is black.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a single person is suggesting this. In fact were it not for Barnes not doing a very good job peoples counter arguments to the issue look more than weak.
Didn't John Barnes walk in to the Celtic job with no expedience when the Sun coined the headline "Super Caley go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious"?
For all the hype of Barnes being a bad manager, he has managed a total of 52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
He was unbeaten in 11 games as Jamaica manager.
He won manager of the month in Scotland shortly before the infamous loss to Caley Thistle that sealed his fate.
He struggled to get going at Tranmere, but look at Tranmere. Who has done well as their manager in the last decade? He was sacked after only 12 games.
The truth is he has barely had a chance.
He was lucky to get the Celtic job but then given no time to do anything in it, and has barely been given a chance since.
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 6 minutes ago
For all the hype of Barnes being a bad manager, he has managed a total of 52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
He was unbeaten in 11 games as Jamaica manager.
He won manager of the month in Scotland shortly before the infamous loss to Caley Thistle that sealed his fate.
He struggled to get going at Tranmere, but look at Tranmere. Who has done well as their manager in the last decade? He was sacked after only 12 games.
The truth is he has barely had a chance.
He was lucky to get the Celtic job but then given no time to do anything in it, and has barely been given a chance since.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately this is life as a manager sometimes!
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted 12 minutes ago
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
---
No.
29 of those games were in Scotland.
Unfortunately this is life as a manager sometimes!
---
For some.
How many chances has Steve Bruce had?
Gary Megson?
Owen Coyle, Dougie Freedman etc etc.
Good point
I am black btw
But a lot of it sometimes is who you know or if you get the deserved/lucky break!
And Megson
"I actually think Ince has a point. He's done some good work and has been offered one opportunity in Blackburn which in hindsight was very much a poisoned chalice."
Actually the Rovers seat wasn't a poisoned chalice then - this was pre-Venkys (Walker Trust days). We'd had a successful period with Hughes moving on before him and Allardyce taking us on after him - and leading us to stability and mid-table finishes. Ince proved himself unable to influence games at this level and his signings were largely poor (there were exceptions). I supported giving Ince a chance and I'm still pleased we did but it was the right decision to remove him at the time. Does he deserve a second chance - yes but at a Championship level club to prove himself again - can anyone say Blackpool?
One other point that can be mentioned is that a lot of black payers in this league are not British or don't have the connection to the country. Once their playing days are over, should we naturally expect them to become managers in England - putting int he effort to do the coaching badges and then taking lower league clubs on or would they expect a top job straight away?
Eg - review the Man City squad - who would become a manager in England - Fernando, Fernandinho, Toure, Kompany, Clichy, Bony (haven't included Mangala as too young). Which of those will want to do their badges here and then want to pick up a smaller club in England, prove their success etc in the way that Jimmy F-H is doing before looking to move on?
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 7 minutes ago
posted 12 minutes ago
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
---
No.
29 of those games were in Scotland.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But what are the rest of the stats then?
I like the comments made earlier that Sir Les of Ferdinand only coached one day a week and didn't even try for his qualifications.
Phil Neville planned for coaching and life in football after playing, as do many black players...
23 games, 10 wins, 5 draws, 8 defeats.
Steve Bruce has a win ratio of about 35% but has stayed in a job for 15 years and 700 games.
John Barnes has a win ratio of 60% but has had 3 jobs and 52 games in the same time frame.
How else can John Barnes explain that in his head without considering race?
How many jobs has Barnes applied for since his time with Jamacian national team?
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 31 minutes ago
23 games, 10 wins, 5 draws, 8 defeats.
Steve Bruce has a win ratio of about 35% but has stayed in a job for 15 years and 700 games.
John Barnes has a win ratio of 60% but has had 3 jobs and 52 games in the same time frame.
How else can John Barnes explain that in his head without considering race?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the thing, if all can't be explained, jump to the racism conclusion. That's a ridiculous way to look at things. Simply there have been no outstanding candidates who are black and when there is, and there will be as numbers in England increase, then that person will get a job.
It's about how good you are, not the colour of your skin. I certainly wouldn't want a black manager managing my club,not because of his skin but because I prefer somebody who has proven to be a good manager. I'm sure when owners pick somebody they would be thinking that also, considering it's their money on the line.
But Barnes was at Celtic and Bruce at relegation fodder.
How many rejections has Barnes had due to his poor show at Celtic etc or as he like to think because f the colour of his skin?
TOOR,
Bit chicken and egg though isn't it. If they are not being given opportunities in top jobs then they cannot prove themselves and outstanding candidate.
I find it slightly offensive that despite lots of anecdotal evidence from people saying they are passed over for opportunities that white people on a forum dismiss it out of hand.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/14/why-so-few-black-football-managers
opportunities that white people on a forum dismiss it out of hand**
How do you know 'white' people are dismissing it out of hand?? a bit presumptious...
Black people make up 3% of the population - 6% in football management - they are over-represented, case closed
How do you know 'white' people are dismissing it out of hand?? a bit presumptious...
=================
Because I've asked them.
BME make up 14% of the population and 25% of the football world. They are under represented and you don't know what you're talking about.
25% of the football in England*
"BME make up 14% of the population and 25% of the football world. They are under represented and you don't know what you're talking about." Doesn't that actually make "them" over represented?? Surely there should be 14% in football??
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Black Managers......
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posted on 17/4/15
comment by Robbing_Hoody - putting the bureaucracy into footballism since 1979 (U6374)
posted 1 hour, 3 minutes ago
the ones moaning are ones that simply do not deserve opportunites. Campbell, barnes (messed up everywhere),etc.
-------------
Who's the etc?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Ince....how many chances does he need to get? Great player of course but he bangs on about not getting oppoortinities.
Les Ferdinand....Not once did he take a coaching course at Spurs he held a minor qualification and coached the forwards once a week. Yet has moaned about opportunites. (If he had the qualifications maybe he would be offered more!) Got offered the Swindon town job a few years ago turned it down at the last minute because it was not right for him. Obvs has fallen on his feet at qpr now.
Rio...I have seen rio talk about opportunites. Once he is retired lets see how much difficulty he will have getting a job somewhere....he wont he will walk into one.
I hate the jobs for the boys in football I don't want to see more put in place that rules the best person out for the job whatever there creed, colour or religion.
posted on 17/4/15
I think there probably a lot of racism in football boardrooms, it still doesn't mean a bad manager should be given a job because he is black.
posted on 17/4/15
So five in history with two being tenuous and I actually think Ince has a point. He's done some good work and has been offered one opportunity in Blackburn which in hindsight was very much a poisoned chalice.
I read an interview with Brian Deane which was interesting. Personally I think institutional racism is alive and well.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by Taggs (U1183)
posted 9 seconds ago
I think there probably a lot of racism in football boardrooms, it still doesn't mean a bad manager should be given a job because he is black.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a single person is suggesting this. In fact were it not for Barnes not doing a very good job peoples counter arguments to the issue look more than weak.
posted on 17/4/15
Didn't John Barnes walk in to the Celtic job with no expedience when the Sun coined the headline "Super Caley go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious"?
posted on 17/4/15
For all the hype of Barnes being a bad manager, he has managed a total of 52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
He was unbeaten in 11 games as Jamaica manager.
He won manager of the month in Scotland shortly before the infamous loss to Caley Thistle that sealed his fate.
He struggled to get going at Tranmere, but look at Tranmere. Who has done well as their manager in the last decade? He was sacked after only 12 games.
The truth is he has barely had a chance.
He was lucky to get the Celtic job but then given no time to do anything in it, and has barely been given a chance since.
posted on 17/4/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 6 minutes ago
For all the hype of Barnes being a bad manager, he has managed a total of 52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
He was unbeaten in 11 games as Jamaica manager.
He won manager of the month in Scotland shortly before the infamous loss to Caley Thistle that sealed his fate.
He struggled to get going at Tranmere, but look at Tranmere. Who has done well as their manager in the last decade? He was sacked after only 12 games.
The truth is he has barely had a chance.
He was lucky to get the Celtic job but then given no time to do anything in it, and has barely been given a chance since.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately this is life as a manager sometimes!
posted on 17/4/15
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
posted on 17/4/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 17/4/15
posted 12 minutes ago
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
---
No.
29 of those games were in Scotland.
posted on 17/4/15
Unfortunately this is life as a manager sometimes!
---
For some.
How many chances has Steve Bruce had?
Gary Megson?
Owen Coyle, Dougie Freedman etc etc.
posted on 17/4/15
Good point
I am black btw
But a lot of it sometimes is who you know or if you get the deserved/lucky break!
And Megson
posted on 17/4/15
"I actually think Ince has a point. He's done some good work and has been offered one opportunity in Blackburn which in hindsight was very much a poisoned chalice."
Actually the Rovers seat wasn't a poisoned chalice then - this was pre-Venkys (Walker Trust days). We'd had a successful period with Hughes moving on before him and Allardyce taking us on after him - and leading us to stability and mid-table finishes. Ince proved himself unable to influence games at this level and his signings were largely poor (there were exceptions). I supported giving Ince a chance and I'm still pleased we did but it was the right decision to remove him at the time. Does he deserve a second chance - yes but at a Championship level club to prove himself again - can anyone say Blackpool?
One other point that can be mentioned is that a lot of black payers in this league are not British or don't have the connection to the country. Once their playing days are over, should we naturally expect them to become managers in England - putting int he effort to do the coaching badges and then taking lower league clubs on or would they expect a top job straight away?
Eg - review the Man City squad - who would become a manager in England - Fernando, Fernandinho, Toure, Kompany, Clichy, Bony (haven't included Mangala as too young). Which of those will want to do their badges here and then want to pick up a smaller club in England, prove their success etc in the way that Jimmy F-H is doing before looking to move on?
posted on 17/4/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 7 minutes ago
posted 12 minutes ago
52 matches, winning 30, drawing 6 and losing 16.
That is in Scotland with Celtic though.
---
No.
29 of those games were in Scotland.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But what are the rest of the stats then?
posted on 17/4/15
I like the comments made earlier that Sir Les of Ferdinand only coached one day a week and didn't even try for his qualifications.
Phil Neville planned for coaching and life in football after playing, as do many black players...
posted on 17/4/15
23 games, 10 wins, 5 draws, 8 defeats.
Steve Bruce has a win ratio of about 35% but has stayed in a job for 15 years and 700 games.
John Barnes has a win ratio of 60% but has had 3 jobs and 52 games in the same time frame.
How else can John Barnes explain that in his head without considering race?
posted on 17/4/15
How many jobs has Barnes applied for since his time with Jamacian national team?
posted on 17/4/15
comment by righteous1 (U7048)
posted 31 minutes ago
23 games, 10 wins, 5 draws, 8 defeats.
Steve Bruce has a win ratio of about 35% but has stayed in a job for 15 years and 700 games.
John Barnes has a win ratio of 60% but has had 3 jobs and 52 games in the same time frame.
How else can John Barnes explain that in his head without considering race?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the thing, if all can't be explained, jump to the racism conclusion. That's a ridiculous way to look at things. Simply there have been no outstanding candidates who are black and when there is, and there will be as numbers in England increase, then that person will get a job.
It's about how good you are, not the colour of your skin. I certainly wouldn't want a black manager managing my club,not because of his skin but because I prefer somebody who has proven to be a good manager. I'm sure when owners pick somebody they would be thinking that also, considering it's their money on the line.
posted on 17/4/15
But Barnes was at Celtic and Bruce at relegation fodder.
posted on 17/4/15
How many rejections has Barnes had due to his poor show at Celtic etc or as he like to think because f the colour of his skin?
posted on 17/4/15
TOOR,
Bit chicken and egg though isn't it. If they are not being given opportunities in top jobs then they cannot prove themselves and outstanding candidate.
I find it slightly offensive that despite lots of anecdotal evidence from people saying they are passed over for opportunities that white people on a forum dismiss it out of hand.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/dec/14/why-so-few-black-football-managers
posted on 17/4/15
opportunities that white people on a forum dismiss it out of hand**
How do you know 'white' people are dismissing it out of hand?? a bit presumptious...
Black people make up 3% of the population - 6% in football management - they are over-represented, case closed
posted on 17/4/15
How do you know 'white' people are dismissing it out of hand?? a bit presumptious...
=================
Because I've asked them.
BME make up 14% of the population and 25% of the football world. They are under represented and you don't know what you're talking about.
posted on 17/4/15
25% of the football in England*
posted on 17/4/15
"BME make up 14% of the population and 25% of the football world. They are under represented and you don't know what you're talking about." Doesn't that actually make "them" over represented?? Surely there should be 14% in football??
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