Whilst Islamic scholars may conclude that ISIS are outside of Islam, they (ISIS) clearly believe they are right in their interpretation and are killing individuals and subjugating others to perpetuate a state based around their religious beliefs. This is supported by proportions of Muslims world around the world.
To be honest, I am not sure you can use the context of a book based around a 7th century individual written in that period (and the interpretations thereon) as a guide to how to treat individuals in the current world.
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
No, because the scholars who are the most knowledgeable have deemed their actions outside of Islam. IS have slaughtered scholars for speaking out. I personally listen to scholars who have dedicated their lives, rather than a few crazed up 20-30 year olds spouting their ill informed interpretations.
Those groups although extreme and evil have caused far less suffering than western democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough.
But one thing that bothers most non Muslims is the lack of public protests against these extreme groups.
When Palestine was attacked, we saw protests across the world.
Why can't muslims organise a "not in my religion" type protest?
I get it that some scholars have discredited these extremists. But you will need more than that to persuade non muslims that such actions are not Islamic.
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by The RDBD (demoted to supporting the team managed by Pep Guardiola) (U1062)
posted 3 minutes ago
"Now please tell me how they are not outside the bounds of Islam? It is shocking that you would think they are."
Are there not caveats in the Quran where all bets are immediately off ??
With any such things, or things that are "open to interpretation" in religious scriptures, then you have the wiggle room for a certain mindset to believe that what they are doing is just (and will be rewarded) .
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope there isn't, here's a prime example.
Some parts of the Quran talk about striking down the infidel and killing non muslims.
Brain washers use these sentences as they are.
Muslims with sincerity use the historical context to interpret these sentences. They only way you can these Quranic verses should be interpreted.
When you use historical context, you will find that these aren't instructions to generally slaughter innocent non muslims.
The Quran is referring to certain moments in the prophets life where small collectives of non muslims were killing Muslims, simply because they were muslim.
The order in the Quran to kill the infidels, was permission to kill the attackers in self defence.
Muslims now use these historical events as an example of only being able to take a life IF attacked.
The Quran even orders Muslims to escort the enemy to safety if they surrender. Imagine what would happen to an enemy combatant on both sides if they surrendered...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your interpretation is completely different from those of Al Shabab, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, ISIS etc.
What if you are wrong and they are right?
Would you still stick with the religion?
I mean, if this interpretation is an isolated occurence, then I can understand. But the fact is that it is happening in Muslim majority countries across the globe.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
Also, if you have a brain and you listened to them and watched their actions, you can see their wrong. They kill Muslims for not following them, post it and seem to take pleasure from it. They have killed scholars for speaking out and seem to be hyped up killing anything in their way. Scholars have spoke against them. It is clear they are outside of the religion and this has been ruled already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe I am not the only one without a brain here.
Have you ever publicly denounced ISIS?
You publicly denounced Israel, America and others during the middle east wars.
Why not ISIS?
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
No, because the scholars who are the most knowledgeable have deemed their actions outside of Islam. IS have slaughtered scholars for speaking out. I personally listen to scholars who have dedicated their lives, rather than a few crazed up 20-30 year olds spouting their ill informed interpretations.
Those groups although extreme and evil have caused far less suffering than western democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough.
But one thing that bothers most non Muslims is the lack of public protests against these extreme groups.
When Palestine was attacked, we saw protests across the world.
Why can't muslims organise a "not in my religion" type protest?
I get it that some scholars have discredited these extremists. But you will need more than that to persuade non muslims that such actions are not Islamic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The same reason white people aren't protesting, the random shooting, or why catholics aren't protesting against pedos in the church.
Why should we, we didn't create them and they are nothing to do with us.
I and many others will disassociate our selves from them, like I am doing now after all they are destroying MY religion.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by Rover the hill and far away (U7040)
posted 4 minutes ago
Whilst Islamic scholars may conclude that ISIS are outside of Islam, they (ISIS) clearly believe they are right in their interpretation and are killing individuals and subjugating others to perpetuate a state based around their religious beliefs. This is supported by proportions of Muslims world around the world.
To be honest, I am not sure you can use the context of a book based around a 7th century individual written in that period (and the interpretations thereon) as a guide to how to treat individuals in the current world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They may think that but why put that on the religion.
If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings.
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 2 minutes ago
mancini (U7179)
There is 1.7 billion Muslims in the world and a media that works 24/7 every day of the year. Don't think we can spend our lives convincing non-muslims, nor should we. I did not commit that crime, why should I pay for it. I will speak out against it if I see it, but not dedicate my life to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The media does not potray all Muslims as terrorist though. That's why they use the word "extremists".
"The same reason white people aren't protesting, the random shooting, or why catholics aren't protesting against pedos in the church.
Why should we, we didn't create them and they are nothing to do with us.
I and many others will disassociate our selves from them, like I am doing now after all they are destroying MY religion."
Got to agree with this. I think the problem that we have in the west is expecting there to be a 'leader' in the Islamic world who speaks on behalf of all Muslims. There is obviously the Pope for Catholicism (and wider Christianity in most cases) and the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem who would be assumed to have the religious authority to speak on behalf of Judaism but there is no such clear figure to the West. I initially thought opposite but not too sure what more the vast majority of the Islamic faith can do more than what they actually do which (from my understanding) is to condemn such a state.
"If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings."
Because those are (from what I understand) strictly forbidden within the Islamic teachings. There is no wiggle room. I am thinking there is way more wiggle room over the treatment of unbelievers, violence, the interpretation of 'who attacked first' and defending yourself than over whether you can enjoy a bacon sarnie with a pint (mmm, now that's a better thought for what to do on a Friday evening).
How has hatred consumed me?**
I didnt say it had - I said dont let it, I would imagine that some of the people that have fled to join IS started off moaning about Britain and the US with regards to interventions in other countries and it grew from there
Didn't even hear about this till today. The minute someone told me, I said "Guess he wasn't Muslim then..."
Anyone wanting to tell me any different, can keep their head buried in the sand.
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 55 minutes ago
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 25 seconds ago
Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
I am not referring to their recent actions in Yemen. I have not really paid much attention to it if I am honest. I am referring to the ordinary person who follows the Hanbali school of thought. Those people are not extreme. I have a few saudi friends and they are far from extreme or outside the rules of Islam. If we are looking at the political system. Every arab country does not follow Islam properly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If your friends adhere to the principles above I have no problem with them.
There is no two ways about it, there is clear interpretation when it comes to taking somebodies life.
Only in self defence can a Muslim do so.
If it's not in self defence then that person is clearly outside the bound of Sharia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam my brother. Not the place to discuss it but thats not quite true. The rulings are different for different circumstances. Occupying forces are dealt with different than standard war, which is why your verses refer to
comment by yeah yeah (U17250)
posted 18 minutes ago
How has hatred consumed me?**
I didnt say it had - I said dont let it, I would imagine that some of the people that have fled to join IS started off moaning about Britain and the US with regards to interventions in other countries and it grew from there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are to believe that the women who left recently from Bradford have gone to join I am not sure the narrative you describe works
It seems the news recentlybjas been about women going and traditionally women are not the ones who follow that narrative and if British politicians are to be believed then why would any woman want to go somewhere where since the Afghanistan invasion we have been told about the "oppression" of women under that branch of Islam.
As I heard the soldiers fighting for Isis are amongst some of the best paid and conditions in areas they control are seen as attractive by many. Not saying its true but its a narrative that's different from what we see on our news
This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent
The problem is it's one rule for one and one rule for everyone else, which in itself shows England doesn't treat people as an equal and i'm fed up of people getting labelled too, like they'd be a media outcry at a racist gang attack if a white person was the offender, but because the victim is a white person being ganged on by a group of Muslims it's just an attack and doesn't even get any media attention.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1596376083950005
The problem is England has a country has done a great job in being a free country with free speech etc etc but they've gone about it in the wrong way and lost their roots and allowed too much freedom including with the immigration, because the people England as a country have helped etc are now just using & exploiting it by trying to take it over due to brainwashing.
Sad state of affairs all round but that's 21st Century, especially with the emphasis on media & social media, used as a tool from all angles
Over 200 mass shootings in America since 2009 apparently. (saw it on twitter so no idea of its accuracy)
If there was no media & no social media there would likely still be some but be so much less war / conflict / brainwashing / anger / racism.
comment by CrouchingAzpiHiddenHazard(Oscar), PL Champions 14/15 (U12980)
posted 2 minutes ago
If there was no media & no social media there would likely still be some but be so much less war / conflict / brainwashing / anger / racism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, people would be far more ignorant and it would cause different potentially worse problems. Better badly presented information than none at all.
Media is just a game of chinese whispers. Modern media has the least middle men between you and the information than has ever occurred thanks to social media an video recording. However as caveat the art of manipulating information has also evolved to a great level as well.
comment by Rover the hill and far away (U7040)
posted 34 minutes ago
"If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings."
Because those are (from what I understand) strictly forbidden within the Islamic teachings. There is no wiggle room. I am thinking there is way more wiggle room over the treatment of unbelievers, violence, the interpretation of 'who attacked first' and defending yourself than over whether you can enjoy a bacon sarnie with a pint (mmm, now that's a better thought for what to do on a Friday evening).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You believer wrong mate and that's fine as a none Muslim who doesn't understand the teachings.
But as a human being with a fully functioning Brian it's just lazy not to have researched this and at the same time still have such a misinformed pint of view on an important subject.
There is no wriggle room.
What part of this is unclear?
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
Is as clear as day that these interpretation aren't interpretations but lies forged for power.
Sign in if you want to comment
Media Bias. #CharlestonShooting
Page 13 of 17
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posted on 19/6/15
Whilst Islamic scholars may conclude that ISIS are outside of Islam, they (ISIS) clearly believe they are right in their interpretation and are killing individuals and subjugating others to perpetuate a state based around their religious beliefs. This is supported by proportions of Muslims world around the world.
To be honest, I am not sure you can use the context of a book based around a 7th century individual written in that period (and the interpretations thereon) as a guide to how to treat individuals in the current world.
posted on 19/6/15
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
No, because the scholars who are the most knowledgeable have deemed their actions outside of Islam. IS have slaughtered scholars for speaking out. I personally listen to scholars who have dedicated their lives, rather than a few crazed up 20-30 year olds spouting their ill informed interpretations.
Those groups although extreme and evil have caused far less suffering than western democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough.
But one thing that bothers most non Muslims is the lack of public protests against these extreme groups.
When Palestine was attacked, we saw protests across the world.
Why can't muslims organise a "not in my religion" type protest?
I get it that some scholars have discredited these extremists. But you will need more than that to persuade non muslims that such actions are not Islamic.
posted on 19/6/15
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by The RDBD (demoted to supporting the team managed by Pep Guardiola) (U1062)
posted 3 minutes ago
"Now please tell me how they are not outside the bounds of Islam? It is shocking that you would think they are."
Are there not caveats in the Quran where all bets are immediately off ??
With any such things, or things that are "open to interpretation" in religious scriptures, then you have the wiggle room for a certain mindset to believe that what they are doing is just (and will be rewarded) .
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nope there isn't, here's a prime example.
Some parts of the Quran talk about striking down the infidel and killing non muslims.
Brain washers use these sentences as they are.
Muslims with sincerity use the historical context to interpret these sentences. They only way you can these Quranic verses should be interpreted.
When you use historical context, you will find that these aren't instructions to generally slaughter innocent non muslims.
The Quran is referring to certain moments in the prophets life where small collectives of non muslims were killing Muslims, simply because they were muslim.
The order in the Quran to kill the infidels, was permission to kill the attackers in self defence.
Muslims now use these historical events as an example of only being able to take a life IF attacked.
The Quran even orders Muslims to escort the enemy to safety if they surrender. Imagine what would happen to an enemy combatant on both sides if they surrendered...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your interpretation is completely different from those of Al Shabab, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, ISIS etc.
What if you are wrong and they are right?
Would you still stick with the religion?
I mean, if this interpretation is an isolated occurence, then I can understand. But the fact is that it is happening in Muslim majority countries across the globe.
posted on 19/6/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/6/15
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
Also, if you have a brain and you listened to them and watched their actions, you can see their wrong. They kill Muslims for not following them, post it and seem to take pleasure from it. They have killed scholars for speaking out and seem to be hyped up killing anything in their way. Scholars have spoke against them. It is clear they are outside of the religion and this has been ruled already.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well maybe I am not the only one without a brain here.
Have you ever publicly denounced ISIS?
You publicly denounced Israel, America and others during the middle east wars.
Why not ISIS?
posted on 19/6/15
comment by mancini (U7179)
posted 19 seconds ago
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 1 minute ago
mancini (U7179)
No, because the scholars who are the most knowledgeable have deemed their actions outside of Islam. IS have slaughtered scholars for speaking out. I personally listen to scholars who have dedicated their lives, rather than a few crazed up 20-30 year olds spouting their ill informed interpretations.
Those groups although extreme and evil have caused far less suffering than western democracy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fair enough.
But one thing that bothers most non Muslims is the lack of public protests against these extreme groups.
When Palestine was attacked, we saw protests across the world.
Why can't muslims organise a "not in my religion" type protest?
I get it that some scholars have discredited these extremists. But you will need more than that to persuade non muslims that such actions are not Islamic.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The same reason white people aren't protesting, the random shooting, or why catholics aren't protesting against pedos in the church.
Why should we, we didn't create them and they are nothing to do with us.
I and many others will disassociate our selves from them, like I am doing now after all they are destroying MY religion.
posted on 19/6/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/6/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/6/15
comment by Rover the hill and far away (U7040)
posted 4 minutes ago
Whilst Islamic scholars may conclude that ISIS are outside of Islam, they (ISIS) clearly believe they are right in their interpretation and are killing individuals and subjugating others to perpetuate a state based around their religious beliefs. This is supported by proportions of Muslims world around the world.
To be honest, I am not sure you can use the context of a book based around a 7th century individual written in that period (and the interpretations thereon) as a guide to how to treat individuals in the current world.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They may think that but why put that on the religion.
If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings.
posted on 19/6/15
Comment deleted by Site Moderator
posted on 19/6/15
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 2 minutes ago
mancini (U7179)
There is 1.7 billion Muslims in the world and a media that works 24/7 every day of the year. Don't think we can spend our lives convincing non-muslims, nor should we. I did not commit that crime, why should I pay for it. I will speak out against it if I see it, but not dedicate my life to it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The media does not potray all Muslims as terrorist though. That's why they use the word "extremists".
posted on 19/6/15
"The same reason white people aren't protesting, the random shooting, or why catholics aren't protesting against pedos in the church.
Why should we, we didn't create them and they are nothing to do with us.
I and many others will disassociate our selves from them, like I am doing now after all they are destroying MY religion."
Got to agree with this. I think the problem that we have in the west is expecting there to be a 'leader' in the Islamic world who speaks on behalf of all Muslims. There is obviously the Pope for Catholicism (and wider Christianity in most cases) and the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem who would be assumed to have the religious authority to speak on behalf of Judaism but there is no such clear figure to the West. I initially thought opposite but not too sure what more the vast majority of the Islamic faith can do more than what they actually do which (from my understanding) is to condemn such a state.
posted on 19/6/15
"If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings."
Because those are (from what I understand) strictly forbidden within the Islamic teachings. There is no wiggle room. I am thinking there is way more wiggle room over the treatment of unbelievers, violence, the interpretation of 'who attacked first' and defending yourself than over whether you can enjoy a bacon sarnie with a pint (mmm, now that's a better thought for what to do on a Friday evening).
posted on 19/6/15
How has hatred consumed me?**
I didnt say it had - I said dont let it, I would imagine that some of the people that have fled to join IS started off moaning about Britain and the US with regards to interventions in other countries and it grew from there
posted on 19/6/15
Didn't even hear about this till today. The minute someone told me, I said "Guess he wasn't Muslim then..."
Anyone wanting to tell me any different, can keep their head buried in the sand.
posted on 19/6/15
comment by Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
posted 55 minutes ago
comment by United we win (U19958)
posted 25 seconds ago
Kung Fu Cantona *JeSuisPalestinian* (U18082)
I am not referring to their recent actions in Yemen. I have not really paid much attention to it if I am honest. I am referring to the ordinary person who follows the Hanbali school of thought. Those people are not extreme. I have a few saudi friends and they are far from extreme or outside the rules of Islam. If we are looking at the political system. Every arab country does not follow Islam properly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If your friends adhere to the principles above I have no problem with them.
There is no two ways about it, there is clear interpretation when it comes to taking somebodies life.
Only in self defence can a Muslim do so.
If it's not in self defence then that person is clearly outside the bound of Sharia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam my brother. Not the place to discuss it but thats not quite true. The rulings are different for different circumstances. Occupying forces are dealt with different than standard war, which is why your verses refer to
posted on 19/6/15
comment by yeah yeah (U17250)
posted 18 minutes ago
How has hatred consumed me?**
I didnt say it had - I said dont let it, I would imagine that some of the people that have fled to join IS started off moaning about Britain and the US with regards to interventions in other countries and it grew from there
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are to believe that the women who left recently from Bradford have gone to join I am not sure the narrative you describe works
It seems the news recentlybjas been about women going and traditionally women are not the ones who follow that narrative and if British politicians are to be believed then why would any woman want to go somewhere where since the Afghanistan invasion we have been told about the "oppression" of women under that branch of Islam.
As I heard the soldiers fighting for Isis are amongst some of the best paid and conditions in areas they control are seen as attractive by many. Not saying its true but its a narrative that's different from what we see on our news
posted on 19/6/15
This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent
posted on 19/6/15
The problem is it's one rule for one and one rule for everyone else, which in itself shows England doesn't treat people as an equal and i'm fed up of people getting labelled too, like they'd be a media outcry at a racist gang attack if a white person was the offender, but because the victim is a white person being ganged on by a group of Muslims it's just an attack and doesn't even get any media attention.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1596376083950005
The problem is England has a country has done a great job in being a free country with free speech etc etc but they've gone about it in the wrong way and lost their roots and allowed too much freedom including with the immigration, because the people England as a country have helped etc are now just using & exploiting it by trying to take it over due to brainwashing.
posted on 19/6/15
Sad state of affairs all round but that's 21st Century, especially with the emphasis on media & social media, used as a tool from all angles
posted on 19/6/15
Over 200 mass shootings in America since 2009 apparently. (saw it on twitter so no idea of its accuracy)
posted on 19/6/15
If there was no media & no social media there would likely still be some but be so much less war / conflict / brainwashing / anger / racism.
posted on 19/6/15
comment by CrouchingAzpiHiddenHazard(Oscar), PL Champions 14/15 (U12980)
posted 2 minutes ago
If there was no media & no social media there would likely still be some but be so much less war / conflict / brainwashing / anger / racism.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Disagree, people would be far more ignorant and it would cause different potentially worse problems. Better badly presented information than none at all.
posted on 19/6/15
Media is just a game of chinese whispers. Modern media has the least middle men between you and the information than has ever occurred thanks to social media an video recording. However as caveat the art of manipulating information has also evolved to a great level as well.
posted on 19/6/15
comment by Rover the hill and far away (U7040)
posted 34 minutes ago
"If I eat a Bacon sandwich and have a pint as a Muslim, does that then magically mean that the Quran now allows me to consume pig and alcohol? No it doesn't, now use this example in reference to killing human beings."
Because those are (from what I understand) strictly forbidden within the Islamic teachings. There is no wiggle room. I am thinking there is way more wiggle room over the treatment of unbelievers, violence, the interpretation of 'who attacked first' and defending yourself than over whether you can enjoy a bacon sarnie with a pint (mmm, now that's a better thought for what to do on a Friday evening).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You believer wrong mate and that's fine as a none Muslim who doesn't understand the teachings.
But as a human being with a fully functioning Brian it's just lazy not to have researched this and at the same time still have such a misinformed pint of view on an important subject.
There is no wriggle room.
What part of this is unclear?
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
Is as clear as day that these interpretation aren't interpretations but lies forged for power.
Page 13 of 17
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