Hamas isn't a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in the way the Israeli government represents Israel. It maintains power in Gaza through coercion, through violence, and of course the Israeli blockade of Gaza keeps the population too poor and desperate to effectively organise any alternative to a ruthless paramilitary force with generous Iranian backing.

So collective punishment of 2 million Gaza residents (half of them children) for the acts of their overlords (who would have fully anticipated Israel's response) is abhorrent. Those here accepting this collective punishment as appropriate are basically endorsing Hamas logic, which saw Jews (and non-Jewish Israel residents) as fair game because of the actions of their state in killing Palestinians.

comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 54 seconds ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not just a dig but as a means of removing the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

It seems their work was successful

What have the romans ever done for us.....?

Syria Pallestina (which to be fair sounds like a wine)

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are very far from innocent.

comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are very far from innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. I didn’t say they were innocent. A lot of what Berba wrote is correct also.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are very far from innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. I didn’t say they were innocent. A lot of what Berba wrote is correct also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish there was a neutral party that negotiate a lasting peace. A state for Palestine and a state for Israel. Both would have to accept that won't get exactly what they want and they would have to share. A pipe dream thou as this cycle will keep repeating itself. Its only going to get worse.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.

comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 50 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are few options available in asymmetrical warfare. If you get rid of Hamas they will only be replaced by something employing the same tactics.
The onus is on Israel to take steps towards peace.

Both sides should be criticised but some people seem to criticise Palestine more than Israeli which is ridiculous and biased IMO.

Criticising Israel more than Palestine isn't ridiculous IMO, because Israel are the occupiers and the oppressors who have created the perfect conditions, especially in Gaza, for an organisation like Hamas to exist, grow in strength and to continue subsist for all this time.

What do you think will happen when you do what they've done? Throughout history, every occupation, oppression or acute denial of rights has given rise to a violent resistance, oft branded as terrorism. It's a par for the course reaction.

comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 50 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are few options available in asymmetrical warfare. If you get rid of Hamas they will only be replaced by something employing the same tactics.
The onus is on Israel to take steps towards peace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep.

comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
Hamas isn't a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in the way the Israeli government represents Israel. It maintains power in Gaza through coercion, through violence, and of course the Israeli blockade of Gaza keeps the population too poor and desperate to effectively organise any alternative to a ruthless paramilitary force with generous Iranian backing.

So collective punishment of 2 million Gaza residents (half of them children) for the acts of their overlords (who would have fully anticipated Israel's response) is abhorrent. Those here accepting this collective punishment as appropriate are basically endorsing Hamas logic, which saw Jews (and non-Jewish Israel residents) as fair game because of the actions of their state in killing Palestinians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said, it's a tough one for the Israeli government to take on the chin and do nothing though.

When a terrorist group attacked America, NATO invaded a nation.

The sheer inhumanity of the Hamas attacks probably made it difficult not to act.

I don't see how a peaceful outcome can be agreed. You can defend and condemn both sides.

comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is the whole dispute - occupiers. Who has the right to be there? As mentioned above the name Palestine literally originated to remove the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

As has been pointed to previously - what happens in the West Bank? Where are the constant rockets, missiles between the West Bank and Israel?

comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 9 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 25 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are very far from innocent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed. I didn’t say they were innocent. A lot of what Berba wrote is correct also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wish there was a neutral party that negotiate a lasting peace. A state for Palestine and a state for Israel. Both would have to accept that won't get exactly what they want and they would have to share. A pipe dream thou as this cycle will keep repeating itself. Its only going to get worse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The UN tried this a long, long time ago but the Arab world wouldn’t accept it and war ensued. The Israelis won.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is the whole dispute - occupiers. Who has the right to be there? As mentioned above the name Palestine literally originated to remove the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

As has been pointed to previously - what happens in the West Bank? Where are the constant rockets, missiles between the West Bank and Israel?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are busy stealing land in the West bank. They clearly have control of the West bank.

comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 5 minutes ago
Both sides should be criticised but some people seem to criticise Palestine more than Israeli which is ridiculous and biased IMO.

Criticising Israel more than Palestine isn't ridiculous IMO, because Israel are the occupiers and the oppressors who have created the perfect conditions, especially in Gaza, for an organisation like Hamas to exist, grow in strength and to continue subsist for all this time.

What do you think will happen when you do what they've done? Throughout history, every occupation, oppression or acute denial of rights has given rise to a violent resistance, oft branded as terrorism. It's a par for the course reaction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I could say the reverse to the first part of that.

I don’t see Israelis dancing in our streets when innocent Palestinians are killed, that’s for sure.

comment by Pedro Poridge at the love Parade (U6468)
posted 41 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 6 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is the whole dispute - occupiers. Who has the right to be there? As mentioned above the name Palestine literally originated to remove the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

As has been pointed to previously - what happens in the West Bank? Where are the constant rockets, missiles between the West Bank and Israel?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel are busy stealing land in the West bank. They clearly have control of the West bank.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes the current Israeli government are far too zionistic and have resumed this.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is the whole dispute - occupiers. Who has the right to be there? As mentioned above the name Palestine literally originated to remove the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

As has been pointed to previously - what happens in the West Bank? Where are the constant rockets, missiles between the West Bank and Israel?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point of the debate why even talk about missiles in West Bank? There wouldn't be any missiles if Israel lived and let live. A dispute over rights to land does not mean that you deny Palestinians basic human rights, control their destiny, lock their borders, underfund their society and oppress them. Doing that is what leads to missiles incoming in your direction.

You're jumping the queue and going straight for the missiles part.

And the name Palestine would have never been used to sever links between Jews and Israel if the Palestinians didn't actually live there as well.

Although I think that’s mostly recently. Generally speaking it’s been peaceful there because Fatah are nothing like Hamas.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 5 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 5 minutes ago
Both sides should be criticised but some people seem to criticise Palestine more than Israeli which is ridiculous and biased IMO.

Criticising Israel more than Palestine isn't ridiculous IMO, because Israel are the occupiers and the oppressors who have created the perfect conditions, especially in Gaza, for an organisation like Hamas to exist, grow in strength and to continue subsist for all this time.

What do you think will happen when you do what they've done? Throughout history, every occupation, oppression or acute denial of rights has given rise to a violent resistance, oft branded as terrorism. It's a par for the course reaction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I could say the reverse to the first part of that.

I don’t see Israelis dancing in our streets when innocent Palestinians are killed, that’s for sure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You just don't get it. Occupation leads to violent resistance and rejoicing by the oppressed when a blow is struck. It's how it works throughout human history. The solution is not to moan about the celebrations but to address the occupation and denial of human rights. All human beings should be as free as you and me.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 24 seconds ago
Although I think that’s mostly recently. Generally speaking it’s been peaceful there because Fatah are nothing like Hamas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
With a shrinking West Bank do you think the people in Gaza are thinking Fatah are doing a good job?

comment by Busby (U19985)
posted 11 minutes ago
comment by Red Russian (U4715)
posted 1 hour, 21 minutes ago
Hamas isn't a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in the way the Israeli government represents Israel. It maintains power in Gaza through coercion, through violence, and of course the Israeli blockade of Gaza keeps the population too poor and desperate to effectively organise any alternative to a ruthless paramilitary force with generous Iranian backing.

So collective punishment of 2 million Gaza residents (half of them children) for the acts of their overlords (who would have fully anticipated Israel's response) is abhorrent. Those here accepting this collective punishment as appropriate are basically endorsing Hamas logic, which saw Jews (and non-Jewish Israel residents) as fair game because of the actions of their state in killing Palestinians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Well said, it's a tough one for the Israeli government to take on the chin and do nothing though.

When a terrorist group attacked America, NATO invaded a nation.

The sheer inhumanity of the Hamas attacks probably made it difficult not to act.

I don't see how a peaceful outcome can be agreed. You can defend and condemn both sides.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To some people there is no excuse for Palestine to kill innocents in their decades long fight for freedom, but when it comes to Israel it's justified to do so because of Hamas actions.

Doesn't add up.

comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 4 minutes ago
Although I think that’s mostly recently. Generally speaking it’s been peaceful there because Fatah are nothing like Hamas.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What you mean is that Fatah isn't as aggressive in it's resistance of Israeli occupation and oppression as Hamas.

comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 31 seconds ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 21 seconds ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 4 minutes ago
comment by Sat Nav (U18243)
posted 35 minutes ago
comment by BerbaKing11 (U6256)
posted 9 hours, 11 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 1 hour, 8 minutes ago
comment by K7-0ptimus Primal (U1282)
posted 51 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----Old Trafford record attendance.....WOLVES V GRIMSBY. .......lolz (U11551)
posted 51 minutes ago
Good ol' Hamas volunteering their people for mass suicide again for a war they can never ever win. But nah, Israel's fault of course.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. Clearly they're not very clever as they're just doing whatever it takes to give Israel an excuse to do what Israel has always wanted to do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Simplistic as it seems, this is exactly it. Whenever any international power asks Israel why, they have a mountain of terrorist evidence to fall back on. The flip side is if Hamas actually lobbied at international levels for a few years while not committing terrorist acts then they would gerner sympathy pretty quickly and the pressure would be on Israel.

But lets be honest, Hamas have zero interest in doing that and just want to commit terrorist acts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Honestly this discussion is painful. People who don't know the elementary facts just firing off nonsense.

We have a documented diplomatic record. It shows two clear things; a negotiated settlement, including with Hamas, has been possible for a long, long time, but repeatedly blocked by the US & Israel.

Many, many ceasefire agreements have been put in place in the last two decades, overwhelmingly honoured by Hamas and repeatedly broken by Israel.

Despite the above two points, the conditions for Palestinians trapped in Gaza have gotten worse, and Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are routinely killed, attacked, beaten, incarcerated and humiliated on a daily basis (which never makes it to the news until brief moments where the dead Palestinians to Israelis ratio starts to narrow, then it and only then does it become headline news - when dead P's to I's is at a ratio of around 100:1, then it's simply not newsworthy).

There couldn't be a more potent breeding ground for extremism than the conditions inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel imaginable - as intelligence and security agencies openly concede - and what we're now seeing is the natural and horrific consequence of that.

I very much doubt any kind of settlement with Hamas could ever be negotiated at this point, but we have to remember that those are choices Israel & the US made repeatedly, for decades. The idea that Hamas are *only* interested in violence simply isn't (or at least *hasn't* been) true, and their violence we should remember is comparatively tiny to that of Israel's.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but some of that just isn’t true either. Which settlement did Hamas agree to? You also seems to be ignoring a lot of the past.

I don’t doubt the US’s involvement but your post really seems to try to absolve the Arab’s and Palestinian’s responsibility in this long conflict, let alone Hamas’ responsibility.

Breaking ceasefire? In 2008 it took less than a week for Islamic jihadists to fire rockets into Israel, less than a week.

You’re stating that only one side has ever wanted a settlement and that is not Israel. This is also completely untrue mate.

It would be useful to all to remember where the word Palestine actually came from, the Romans labelled the land of Israel Syria Pallaestina centuries before Christ in a dig against the Jews.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This argument is tempered by the fact that Palestine are not the occupiers, they are the occupied. It's a bit tricky to argue that both sides are to blame IMO. Of course organisations like Hamas do things that get in the way of peace, and they are to blame for that, but there wouldn't be that scenario in the first place without the occupation, oppression and denial of human rights.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But this is the whole dispute - occupiers. Who has the right to be there? As mentioned above the name Palestine literally originated to remove the link between Jews and the land of Israel.

As has been pointed to previously - what happens in the West Bank? Where are the constant rockets, missiles between the West Bank and Israel?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point of the debate why even talk about missiles in West Bank? There wouldn't be any missiles if Israel lived and let live. A dispute over rights to land does not mean that you deny Palestinians basic human rights, control their destiny, lock their borders, underfund their society and oppress them. Doing that is what leads to missiles incoming in your direction.

You're jumping the queue and going straight for the missiles part.

And the name Palestine would have never been used to sever links between Jews and Israel if the Palestinians didn't actually live there as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m sorry but if you cannot see the difference between Fatah and Hamas then I cannot help you.

Israel is Israel yet the two areas are experiencing very different situations. Why is that? Israel is still Israel, something else therefore must be different - what do you think that difference is?


The rest of your post is just pointing out the atrocities (only one sided I might add) carried over a land dispute


Palestine is an area, not a people. The reason it was created by the Romans was it was a resentful punishment against the Jews, not because there were nomadic people there.

I’m sorry but if you cannot see the difference between Fatah and Hamas then I cannot help you.
=====
Doesn't matter much for this comparison how any of them choose to fight back against the occupation and oppression. The focus should be on the occupiers and oppressors who creat the conditions for organisations like Hamas and Fatah to exist. The root of the problem.