comment by Vladimikel Artutin - committing war crimes against football since 2019 (U18355)
posted 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 3 hours, 9 minutes ago
Canary Islands seem relatively safe. Morocco would have their hands full just trying to take Ceuta and Melilla.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m moving to Marbella full time in March so Morocco need to close all their ports and stay out of this shiiit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? What you going to do there?
(A brother of mine worked in Marbella for a few years, although he commuted there every day from around the Gibraltar area.)
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! ... (U6426)
posted 8 hours, 28 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 a peaceful march be Palestinians in Gaza was met by violence.
Palestinians have a right to resist, with violence, occupation. Any nation or people having a third party impose foreign colonial settlers onto them and giving them land over the natives would resist such thing. It is why you see white South Africans, the white Namibians (of German descent who got the land through genocide) and previous the White Zimbabweans having the best land whole the local were pushed into worse land and over crowdedness.
So you may have lived a long time and for a long period. You were fed the news from one side for that period. It wasn't until the last 20 years when the Western press had to take in views from the Palestinians side in a more neutral manner.
Israel is a colonials state supported why western powers. What they have done since the Nakba is ethnic cleansing. And now they have been carrying out what's tantamount to Genocide. The Likud party's charter has said theyd never allow a Sovereign Palestinian state. All the peace process offered where never a Sovereign Palestinian state. Any peaceful action was met with violence and hostility.
Israel itself was founded on terrorism. It would be no different to how ISIS had a state except less ethnic cleansing and the West recognised it. Those terrorists then went on to form the IDF (funny name as it reminds me of North Korea calling themselves The Democratic Republic of Korea, one isn't democratic and their other is rarely used for defence, rather the opposite)
Martin Luther King mentioned that the biggest threat to his movement was the "White Moderate".
We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored. Ilhan P@p3 (Whynisnhis last name a banned word?) writes about this. Norman Finkelstein another and then there's Chomsky. 3 big names. And then you just have to see what they did to Teddy Katz who recorded the atrocities carried out by Zionists in Tantura.
Any time peace was used, those who tried peacefully (as has been shown in 2018 and the peace accord) that they will be met with violence and more of the lands stolen.
Ghada Karmi, a British-Palestinian author and lecturer at Exeter University’s Institute of Arab and Islamic studies, says the central issue is that Israelis “never intended” to comply with UNSC Resolution 242, adopted on November 22, 1967. They used that to seize more land.
US-based Journal of Palestine Studies, lawyer and Georgetown University professor Noura Erekat wrote that Israel has used Resolution 242 to justify the seizure of Palestinian land.
“When Israel declared its establishment in May 1948, it denied that Arab Palestinians had a similar right to statehood as the Jews because the Arab countries had rejected the Partition Plan,” Erekat wrote, referencing UN Resolution 181.
The final language of Resolution 242 did not correct the failure to realise Palestinian self-determination, referring merely to the “refugee problem”, she added.
“Following the 1967 war, Israel argued that given the sovereign void in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip the territories were neither occupied nor not occupied,” Erekat said, noting that Israel used this argument “to steadily grab Palestinian land without absorbing the Palestinians on the land”.
So, Israel was formed through violence. Peace was never an option with a group formed with the goal of a single ethno state (carrying out attacks on villages that stayed neutral just because they're Palestinians and possibly bombing Jews in other Arab nations like Iraq to force them to migrate to Israel). Anyone asking for peaceful resolution will look at how only through violence or a threat of it that many many nations got independence from Western Colonialism. Israel was late to the party but are just that.
The Civil rights movement would not have succeeded without the likes of Malcolm X who said they need to stand up and protect themselves and the use of violence is necessary. Martin Luther King came to the same conclusion as the "White Moderate" wants peace while the rights of theirs was denied.
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
Of course there was resistance before Hamas because in human history oppression and apartheid has always led to violent uprising every single time. There has never been an occupier that didn't face violent revolt.
Sometimes we back freedom fighters and sometimes we call them terrorists, but in the case of Hamas they are definitely still terrorists because they also have agendas which do not align with a freedom movement, like the destruction of Israel.
The aim should not be to destroy Israel as that only helps Israel's propaganda to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians. Only entity Hamas helps to achieve their goals is Israel, does nothing but damage Palestinians and their cause.
The aim is to ensure peace, human rights and a good quality of life for all including Israelis and Palestinians. Not to destroy either. Surely you agree that this cannot happen and there can be no peace whilst Israel occupies Palestine, oversees apartheid and treats them as second class citizens, and denying Palestinians a right to self determination. Expecting peace through any other means is ridiculous and nonsensical IMO. History shows that there's a way things work.
https://x.com/censoredmen/status/1748142212515307644?s=46&t=OGfZZhWP7rROftTlMhKPZg
🚨🇮🇱#BREAKING: Israeli news channel @i24NEWS_EN, has deleted the viral video of Benjamin Netanyahu saying:
"In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river of the sea."
Thought we weren’t allowed to say that…
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 18 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Tu Meke (U3732)
posted 30 minutes ago
Palestinians have tried peaceful protesting, Israeli forces still shot them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And will do so again, without a doubt, but I still think that there's a lot that passive resistance could achieve if it were deployed as a sustained, concerted strategy.
===
I see no logic here whatsoever. Israel are the occupying force. They want to claim the lands and, at best (at best!) subjugate the indigenous peoples into an apartheid state.
Look at the west bank. Israeli controlled via militia. Palestinians can't so much as take a chit without permission. Palestinians being killed for minor infractions. This is what they have to look forward to if they all band together and sing "koombayah my lord" as you're suggesting.
In reality, peaceful protesting has been met with violence and death.
Israel do not want a 2 state solution. At best, they want apartheid, next best, send all the Palestinians to neighbouring lands, at worst, genocide.
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
@Mamba, similar story. I'm not suggesting the Palestinians accept the status quo, but that they might make more inroads if they adopted a different strategy. I have at no point suggested either that Israeli violence is caused by Palistinian attacks. I've actually stated repeatedly that it's a false narrative that's been peddled constantly for decades.
My suggestion was not to march peacefully, but to consider the potential of nonviolent civil disobedience as a concerted strategy. This, to my knowledge, hasn't been tried for any significant period, but I'm ready to be corrected.
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anything else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation. I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too well.
I don't know what you mean by different strategy. There is no Hamas in the West Bank. Palestine is not Hamas. Hamas is a dictatorship that conveniently misrepresents the wishes of a majority of Palestinians. Everything they do helps Israel and hurts Palestine. A strange resistance movement to say the least. Israel pretending Hamas is Palestine and that's their narrative.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240117-ilan-pappes-book-ten-myths-about-israel-challenges-the-propaganda-campaign/amp/
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2IPeGgozfz/?igsh=MWlvbzlsaW9xMGZoeA==
This guy
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 8 hours, 18 minutes ago
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
@Mamba, similar story. I'm not suggesting the Palestinians accept the status quo, but that they might make more inroads if they adopted a different strategy. I have at no point suggested either that Israeli violence is caused by Palistinian attacks. I've actually stated repeatedly that it's a false narrative that's been peddled constantly for decades.
My suggestion was not to march peacefully, but to consider the potential of nonviolent civil disobedience as a concerted strategy. This, to my knowledge, hasn't been tried for any significant period, but I'm ready to be corrected.
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anything else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation. I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an interesting point, but how likely and practical it would be is another matter.
Personally I’m not sure it would be effective in changing public opinion in the West. I actually think being the victims of genocide is more effective than peaceful protest, as grim as that sounds, but I generally think it’s true. Peacefully protesting Muslims would not get the same sympathy as ones that are being ethnically cleansed.
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! ... (U6426)
posted 8 hours ago
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
------
I apologise, I haven't read your other comments. I was hasty in saying that.
Agreed.
Peaceful means has been tried. Unfortunately, these will not yield results as Likud and Zionist goals are to have, ironically, a Jewish etho (preferably white) state from the river to the sea.
As I have said o haven't read your other contributions. The "white moderate" is or was quite apt as peace is wanted and the trouble to go away but justice bit served. Now as I hadn't read your other contributions, I take this back and it was premature for me to say this about you.
Never used that word but I have had issues where some words have triggered the ban word before yet others could use it.
What other strategy would work when the likes of the US, UK, the EU are so in favour of Israel that none are willing to condmen their action and support them financially. What has been turning the tide is not just the resistance shown by ordinary Palestinians and their will to endure while the worlds government stand by and make the mantra of "Never again" look like an utter joke.
Now can you suggest something new or different they could try? We can debate them if you have an actual suggestion.
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So the people residing in the area known as Palestine should lose their land and lives to ease the conscience of Europeans?
Why should they have to pay for the sins of others?
So the people residing in the area known as Palestine should lose their land and lives to ease the conscience of Europeans?
Why should they have to pay for the sins of others?
—-
They shouldn’t but the reality is when there’s an end to a major war like WW2 the victors decide how to restore world order, The UK’s empire was dying and we had to get out of the Middle East. The UN plan might not have been fair but it gave the chance for a Palestinian state something which is a long way from being realised now.
I have to say though, after Israel won the war in 1948 they have been taking the liberties ever since. They are like spoilt kid that’s had it way for far too long and they need reigning in….
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 49 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’d think they wouldn’t want to act anything like the Naaazis either, but here we are.
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 10 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 49 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’d think they wouldn’t want to act anything like the Naaazis either, but here we are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. And why was the lands of others given when it is Europe who needs to atone for the atrocities they commited?
Let's not forget the genocide in Namibia where the descendents of said genocide still have the land of the people they genocided. And Germany had yet to apologise to the people in that nation for their actions or pay reparations.
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anyth ing else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation . I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too we
===
IOAG, I largely think western opinion is on the Palestinians side. A very obvious genocide attempt can
fool a few into thinking the occupiers are the good guys, but most of the public can see what's what. Especially with the rise of social media.
As for how this ends well for the Palestinians - I unfortunately cannot see a good ending for them. Western backed Israel is too mighty a force, seemingly nothing the public does can sway that. All we can do is vote the right people in, but that'll never happen. Domestic issues will always trump the needs of those overseas, and understandably so for most people. The most people can do is keep awareness alive and keep protesting. Which is next to useless in the face of the evils of western policy, but hey ho.
It's western government is the issue, they clearly
https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1748400107098124458?s=46&t=OGfZZhWP7rROftTlMhKPZg
Even the dead aren’t safe when the IDF come to town ‘but Hamas’
The concerted strategy of peaceful protesting thing is just a quick way to get Palestinians killed really. Western governments want Israel to succeed. There's just not much you can do to fight that, aside from voting in a party that is against it. Democracy eh?
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
===
Go fook yourself.
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 12 hours, 59 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arguably the mist stupid comment I've seen on this topic.
So they go and oversee apartheid over people who had nothing to do with their troubles? By your logic, they should be killing Germans, not Palestinians.
And furthermore, they're doing almost exactly what happened to them to the Palestinians. If you feel sorry for them for what happened 75 years ago well it's happening right now to Palestinians.
I just can't understand the stupidity, weirdness of opinions and everything being in reverse when it comes to Israel. It's like magic.
I mean, did Cinci even think through this comment or does defend Israel at all costs, even if it means making yourself look stupid, come naturally to these Israel sympathisers?
comment by Tu Meke (U3732)
posted 44 minutes ago
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
===
Go fook yourself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No no no.
Israel (not Jews) have suffered so much that they're allowed to go out and for 75 years put Palestinians under apartheid, imprison them without trial, control and weaponise their amenities and facilities, displace them, kill hundreds of thousands over the decades and murder 10,000 children in a few months.
This made sense to me when I typed it out. Thanks.
Sign in if you want to comment
Israel
Page 17 of 31
18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22
posted on 18/1/24
comment by Vladimikel Artutin - committing war crimes against football since 2019 (U18355)
posted 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 3 hours, 9 minutes ago
Canary Islands seem relatively safe. Morocco would have their hands full just trying to take Ceuta and Melilla.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m moving to Marbella full time in March so Morocco need to close all their ports and stay out of this shiiit
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? What you going to do there?
(A brother of mine worked in Marbella for a few years, although he commuted there every day from around the Gibraltar area.)
posted on 18/1/24
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! ... (U6426)
posted 8 hours, 28 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 a peaceful march be Palestinians in Gaza was met by violence.
Palestinians have a right to resist, with violence, occupation. Any nation or people having a third party impose foreign colonial settlers onto them and giving them land over the natives would resist such thing. It is why you see white South Africans, the white Namibians (of German descent who got the land through genocide) and previous the White Zimbabweans having the best land whole the local were pushed into worse land and over crowdedness.
So you may have lived a long time and for a long period. You were fed the news from one side for that period. It wasn't until the last 20 years when the Western press had to take in views from the Palestinians side in a more neutral manner.
Israel is a colonials state supported why western powers. What they have done since the Nakba is ethnic cleansing. And now they have been carrying out what's tantamount to Genocide. The Likud party's charter has said theyd never allow a Sovereign Palestinian state. All the peace process offered where never a Sovereign Palestinian state. Any peaceful action was met with violence and hostility.
Israel itself was founded on terrorism. It would be no different to how ISIS had a state except less ethnic cleansing and the West recognised it. Those terrorists then went on to form the IDF (funny name as it reminds me of North Korea calling themselves The Democratic Republic of Korea, one isn't democratic and their other is rarely used for defence, rather the opposite)
Martin Luther King mentioned that the biggest threat to his movement was the "White Moderate".
We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored. Ilhan P@p3 (Whynisnhis last name a banned word?) writes about this. Norman Finkelstein another and then there's Chomsky. 3 big names. And then you just have to see what they did to Teddy Katz who recorded the atrocities carried out by Zionists in Tantura.
Any time peace was used, those who tried peacefully (as has been shown in 2018 and the peace accord) that they will be met with violence and more of the lands stolen.
Ghada Karmi, a British-Palestinian author and lecturer at Exeter University’s Institute of Arab and Islamic studies, says the central issue is that Israelis “never intended” to comply with UNSC Resolution 242, adopted on November 22, 1967. They used that to seize more land.
US-based Journal of Palestine Studies, lawyer and Georgetown University professor Noura Erekat wrote that Israel has used Resolution 242 to justify the seizure of Palestinian land.
“When Israel declared its establishment in May 1948, it denied that Arab Palestinians had a similar right to statehood as the Jews because the Arab countries had rejected the Partition Plan,” Erekat wrote, referencing UN Resolution 181.
The final language of Resolution 242 did not correct the failure to realise Palestinian self-determination, referring merely to the “refugee problem”, she added.
“Following the 1967 war, Israel argued that given the sovereign void in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip the territories were neither occupied nor not occupied,” Erekat said, noting that Israel used this argument “to steadily grab Palestinian land without absorbing the Palestinians on the land”.
So, Israel was formed through violence. Peace was never an option with a group formed with the goal of a single ethno state (carrying out attacks on villages that stayed neutral just because they're Palestinians and possibly bombing Jews in other Arab nations like Iraq to force them to migrate to Israel). Anyone asking for peaceful resolution will look at how only through violence or a threat of it that many many nations got independence from Western Colonialism. Israel was late to the party but are just that.
posted on 19/1/24
The Civil rights movement would not have succeeded without the likes of Malcolm X who said they need to stand up and protect themselves and the use of violence is necessary. Martin Luther King came to the same conclusion as the "White Moderate" wants peace while the rights of theirs was denied.
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
posted on 19/1/24
Of course there was resistance before Hamas because in human history oppression and apartheid has always led to violent uprising every single time. There has never been an occupier that didn't face violent revolt.
Sometimes we back freedom fighters and sometimes we call them terrorists, but in the case of Hamas they are definitely still terrorists because they also have agendas which do not align with a freedom movement, like the destruction of Israel.
The aim should not be to destroy Israel as that only helps Israel's propaganda to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians. Only entity Hamas helps to achieve their goals is Israel, does nothing but damage Palestinians and their cause.
The aim is to ensure peace, human rights and a good quality of life for all including Israelis and Palestinians. Not to destroy either. Surely you agree that this cannot happen and there can be no peace whilst Israel occupies Palestine, oversees apartheid and treats them as second class citizens, and denying Palestinians a right to self determination. Expecting peace through any other means is ridiculous and nonsensical IMO. History shows that there's a way things work.
posted on 19/1/24
https://x.com/censoredmen/status/1748142212515307644?s=46&t=OGfZZhWP7rROftTlMhKPZg
🚨🇮🇱#BREAKING: Israeli news channel @i24NEWS_EN, has deleted the viral video of Benjamin Netanyahu saying:
"In the future, the state of Israel has to control the entire area from the river of the sea."
Thought we weren’t allowed to say that…
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 18 hours, 46 minutes ago
comment by Tu Meke (U3732)
posted 30 minutes ago
Palestinians have tried peaceful protesting, Israeli forces still shot them
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And will do so again, without a doubt, but I still think that there's a lot that passive resistance could achieve if it were deployed as a sustained, concerted strategy.
===
I see no logic here whatsoever. Israel are the occupying force. They want to claim the lands and, at best (at best!) subjugate the indigenous peoples into an apartheid state.
Look at the west bank. Israeli controlled via militia. Palestinians can't so much as take a chit without permission. Palestinians being killed for minor infractions. This is what they have to look forward to if they all band together and sing "koombayah my lord" as you're suggesting.
In reality, peaceful protesting has been met with violence and death.
Israel do not want a 2 state solution. At best, they want apartheid, next best, send all the Palestinians to neighbouring lands, at worst, genocide.
posted on 19/1/24
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
@Mamba, similar story. I'm not suggesting the Palestinians accept the status quo, but that they might make more inroads if they adopted a different strategy. I have at no point suggested either that Israeli violence is caused by Palistinian attacks. I've actually stated repeatedly that it's a false narrative that's been peddled constantly for decades.
My suggestion was not to march peacefully, but to consider the potential of nonviolent civil disobedience as a concerted strategy. This, to my knowledge, hasn't been tried for any significant period, but I'm ready to be corrected.
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anything else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation. I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too well.
posted on 19/1/24
I don't know what you mean by different strategy. There is no Hamas in the West Bank. Palestine is not Hamas. Hamas is a dictatorship that conveniently misrepresents the wishes of a majority of Palestinians. Everything they do helps Israel and hurts Palestine. A strange resistance movement to say the least. Israel pretending Hamas is Palestine and that's their narrative.
posted on 19/1/24
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240117-ilan-pappes-book-ten-myths-about-israel-challenges-the-propaganda-campaign/amp/
posted on 19/1/24
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2IPeGgozfz/?igsh=MWlvbzlsaW9xMGZoeA==
This guy
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 8 hours, 18 minutes ago
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
@Mamba, similar story. I'm not suggesting the Palestinians accept the status quo, but that they might make more inroads if they adopted a different strategy. I have at no point suggested either that Israeli violence is caused by Palistinian attacks. I've actually stated repeatedly that it's a false narrative that's been peddled constantly for decades.
My suggestion was not to march peacefully, but to consider the potential of nonviolent civil disobedience as a concerted strategy. This, to my knowledge, hasn't been tried for any significant period, but I'm ready to be corrected.
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anything else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation. I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an interesting point, but how likely and practical it would be is another matter.
Personally I’m not sure it would be effective in changing public opinion in the West. I actually think being the victims of genocide is more effective than peaceful protest, as grim as that sounds, but I generally think it’s true. Peacefully protesting Muslims would not get the same sympathy as ones that are being ethnically cleansed.
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! ... (U6426)
posted 8 hours ago
@Currently: "We get it. You want the Palestinians to roll over and die while any effort of resistance is ignored."
You actually don't get it at all. In fact, it's a pretty insulting and completely baseless remark if you've read any of my other contributions on the thread.
As regards the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Israel and the IDF are terrorist actors, they commit war crimes and crimes against humanity on a regular basis. It's almost painful to have to type this over and over.
So, please tell me where I've denied Palestinians' right to resist and defend themselves?
Nice rhetoric about the American civil rights movement, but you're just strawmanning me to make your points.
And by the way, the word you asked about being banned is a derivative form of a religious slur used against Catholics for hundreds of years. The author you had in mind is Ilan Pappé, word not banned.
------
I apologise, I haven't read your other comments. I was hasty in saying that.
Agreed.
Peaceful means has been tried. Unfortunately, these will not yield results as Likud and Zionist goals are to have, ironically, a Jewish etho (preferably white) state from the river to the sea.
As I have said o haven't read your other contributions. The "white moderate" is or was quite apt as peace is wanted and the trouble to go away but justice bit served. Now as I hadn't read your other contributions, I take this back and it was premature for me to say this about you.
Never used that word but I have had issues where some words have triggered the ban word before yet others could use it.
What other strategy would work when the likes of the US, UK, the EU are so in favour of Israel that none are willing to condmen their action and support them financially. What has been turning the tide is not just the resistance shown by ordinary Palestinians and their will to endure while the worlds government stand by and make the mantra of "Never again" look like an utter joke.
Now can you suggest something new or different they could try? We can debate them if you have an actual suggestion.
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 2 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So the people residing in the area known as Palestine should lose their land and lives to ease the conscience of Europeans?
Why should they have to pay for the sins of others?
posted on 19/1/24
So the people residing in the area known as Palestine should lose their land and lives to ease the conscience of Europeans?
Why should they have to pay for the sins of others?
—-
They shouldn’t but the reality is when there’s an end to a major war like WW2 the victors decide how to restore world order, The UK’s empire was dying and we had to get out of the Middle East. The UN plan might not have been fair but it gave the chance for a Palestinian state something which is a long way from being realised now.
I have to say though, after Israel won the war in 1948 they have been taking the liberties ever since. They are like spoilt kid that’s had it way for far too long and they need reigning in….
posted on 19/1/24
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 49 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’d think they wouldn’t want to act anything like the Naaazis either, but here we are.
posted on 20/1/24
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 10 hours, 31 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 49 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You’d think they wouldn’t want to act anything like the Naaazis either, but here we are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly. And why was the lands of others given when it is Europe who needs to atone for the atrocities they commited?
Let's not forget the genocide in Namibia where the descendents of said genocide still have the land of the people they genocided. And Germany had yet to apologise to the people in that nation for their actions or pay reparations.
posted on 20/1/24
TuMeke, again, concerted strategy. Let me ask you guys, how do you think this conflict is going to end successfully for the peopleof Palestine?
Judging by how it's gone until now, the result of the armed struggle has been for Israel to keep taking more and more land. A big part of the reason for that is the backing it gets from the West. I can't see that changing until Israel becomes isolated internationally, like Apartheid South Africa eventually became isolated (although itd final fall was probably more geopolitical than anyth ing else).
And I can't see Israel being isolated internationally as long as they are able to claim some sort of narrative of retaliation . I can't see them being isolated until public opinion in the West has fully embraced the Palestinian cause. And I can't see that happening as long as children's school buses are blown up or hundreds of people are slaughtered at a music festival. You're free to disagree, of course, but it seems to me that that strategy isn't working too we
===
IOAG, I largely think western opinion is on the Palestinians side. A very obvious genocide attempt can
fool a few into thinking the occupiers are the good guys, but most of the public can see what's what. Especially with the rise of social media.
As for how this ends well for the Palestinians - I unfortunately cannot see a good ending for them. Western backed Israel is too mighty a force, seemingly nothing the public does can sway that. All we can do is vote the right people in, but that'll never happen. Domestic issues will always trump the needs of those overseas, and understandably so for most people. The most people can do is keep awareness alive and keep protesting. Which is next to useless in the face of the evils of western policy, but hey ho.
It's western government is the issue, they clearly
posted on 20/1/24
https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1748400107098124458?s=46&t=OGfZZhWP7rROftTlMhKPZg
Even the dead aren’t safe when the IDF come to town ‘but Hamas’
posted on 20/1/24
The concerted strategy of peaceful protesting thing is just a quick way to get Palestinians killed really. Western governments want Israel to succeed. There's just not much you can do to fight that, aside from voting in a party that is against it. Democracy eh?
posted on 20/1/24
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
===
Go fook yourself.
posted on 20/1/24
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 12 hours, 59 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are ... (U1282)
posted 14 hours, 10 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 9 hours, 6 minutes ago
comment by Thorgen Kloppinson - "When the facts are in your favour, you argue the facts. When facts are not in your favour you argue the process." (U1282)
posted 2 hours, 3 minutes ago
Israel had over 69 years to stop their racism and apartheid before Hamas came into existence.
Furthermore, there is no Hamas in the West Bank and they too are under apartheid. Instead there is the PLO which recognises Israel and seeks a two state solution but are ignored by Israel because Israel has other motives. Where is the support from the world's most advanced democracies for the West Bank? The West Bank's oath to regaining their land isn't getting any shorter.
I thought this issue had been deeply discussed already. I'm surprise there's still people talking about passive resistance and peaceful protest. That didn't work before Hamas. Read up on the issue bed commenting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mamba. How old are you, out of curiosity?
Because I'm more than old enough to remember the times well before Hamas. Old enough to remember when Fatah were the predominant militia. Old enough to remember the times before the Palestinian National Authority, and old enough to remember the PLO way before the Oslo accords.
Palestinian didn't suddenly become violent with Hamas.
Here, take a look at Fatah's party emblem, and tell me just how pacifist it looks to you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah#/media/File:Fatah_logo.png
At no time as far back as my memory stretches, which goes back to when I was a kid and first started paying attention to the news in the roughly the late 1970s, do I remember a sustained period of non-violent passive resistance without terrorist violence. (The Entebbe raid is possibly the oldest related event I recall being covered on the news when I was a kid.)
I'm not saying they haven't existed, but I've long been interested in this conflict and can't remember them.
Perhaps you can illuminate me?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not claiming such periods have existed. I'm sure they have but that's not my point.
The point is the ridiculousness of being occupied by Israel and placed under apartheid and then hearing the people that are supposed to help you fight for freedom instead saying that you'd be better off if you just accepted the occupation and apartheid and played nice.
What is your point? That Israel continues to oppress Palestine for 75 years because Palestine fights back? And if Palestine had never fought back they'd be free by now?
As I said earlier, the mental gymnastics and general ridiculousness around Israel is unprecedented by any other form of propaganda I am aware of in history. Everything's is upside down and in reverse.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arguably the mist stupid comment I've seen on this topic.
So they go and oversee apartheid over people who had nothing to do with their troubles? By your logic, they should be killing Germans, not Palestinians.
And furthermore, they're doing almost exactly what happened to them to the Palestinians. If you feel sorry for them for what happened 75 years ago well it's happening right now to Palestinians.
I just can't understand the stupidity, weirdness of opinions and everything being in reverse when it comes to Israel. It's like magic.
I mean, did Cinci even think through this comment or does defend Israel at all costs, even if it means making yourself look stupid, come naturally to these Israel sympathisers?
posted on 20/1/24
comment by Tu Meke (U3732)
posted 44 minutes ago
You talk about 75 years ago as if Israel were some power that just decided they were gonna occupy and bully neighbours.
I am fuzzy on this but 75 years ago something was happening to Israel and the jews if I remember correctly, something about millions being slaughtered for being Jewish.
Can't think for the life of me why Israel may have had a chip on its shoulder can you?
===
Go fook yourself.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No no no.
Israel (not Jews) have suffered so much that they're allowed to go out and for 75 years put Palestinians under apartheid, imprison them without trial, control and weaponise their amenities and facilities, displace them, kill hundreds of thousands over the decades and murder 10,000 children in a few months.
This made sense to me when I typed it out. Thanks.
Page 17 of 31
18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22