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Israel

Page 25 of 31

posted on 21/1/24

The Jews have made plenty of mistakes in Israel. They began with a determination not to be victims any more.
But kindness to their neighbours would have brought a better result.

posted on 21/1/24

"The reason Israel exists is because of the holocaust."
--------


That, actually, is a broadly held misconception. The plans to establish a home for the Jewish people were already well under way before the Holocaust.

You're a curious fellow, so I think that as an aside to the general discussion, you might find the following interesting.

Since the birth of Zionism, and during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, confrontations had been on the rise between Muslim and Christian Arabs, on the one hand, and newly arrived Zionist immigrants to Palestine.

The British government had publicly stated its support for the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Britain didn't even have a mandate over Palestine at the time, which was under Ottoman rule until the First World War.

The Churchill White Paper of 1922 reasserted this aim.

When the Arab Revolt broke out against British colonial occupation in 1936, the Israeli paramilitary forces (Haganah) sided with the British to crush the rebellion. In its entirety, the revolt would last practically until the outbreak of the Second World War, ending with Arab casualties estimated at approximately 10 times those of the Anglo-Zionist forces.

In 1937, after the initial uprising had died down, the Peel Commission proposed the partitioning of Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states in 1937. This caused an immediate flare up of the tensions, even though the proposal was considered unworkable by the British Government.

Further unfruitful talks towards the partition were held at the London Conference of 1939.

There were many other landmarks along the way, but I think the above clearly shows how Israel would still have come into existence regardless of the Holocaust.

posted on 21/1/24

comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 1 minute ago
"The reason Israel exists is because of the holocaust."
--------


That, actually, is a broadly held misconception. The plans to establish a home for the Jewish people were already well under way before the Holocaust.

You're a curious fellow, so I think that as an aside to the general discussion, you might find the following interesting.

Since the birth of Zionism, and during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, confrontations had been on the rise between Muslim and Christian Arabs, on the one hand, and newly arrived Zionist immigrants to Palestine.

The British government had publicly stated its support for the creation of the State of Israel in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Britain didn't even have a mandate over Palestine at the time, which was under Ottoman rule until the First World War.

The Churchill White Paper of 1922 reasserted this aim.

When the Arab Revolt broke out against British colonial occupation in 1936, the Israeli paramilitary forces (Haganah) sided with the British to crush the rebellion. In its entirety, the revolt would last practically until the outbreak of the Second World War, ending with Arab casualties estimated at approximately 10 times those of the Anglo-Zionist forces.

In 1937, after the initial uprising had died down, the Peel Commission proposed the partitioning of Palestine into separate Arab and Jewish states in 1937. This caused an immediate flare up of the tensions, even though the proposal was considered unworkable by the British Government.

Further unfruitful talks towards the partition were held at the London Conference of 1939.

There were many other landmarks along the way, but I think the above clearly shows how Israel would still have come into existence regardless of the Holocaust.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read about the Balfour treaty and the events since. But I would say Israel could have come into existence, rather than would have.
And it was the holocaust that was the determining factor that made it imperative imo. I also firmly believe that it was right.
But it wasn't done in the best way in terms of the treatment of the Arabs who lived in the territory.
But everyone seems to ignore the hostility of the surrounding countries.

posted on 21/1/24

comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago


The irony of bringing up how long Israel can use the war as an excuse when you continually use the actions in the late 40s and 50s as the reason for terrorism acts on Israel.

Fact here is that until both sides put to bed what has gone before this doesn't end. It is the here and now that matters, not who got what land 70 years ago. A terrorist attack killing 1000+ people in one swoop sets this whole debacle back another 20 years, of that there is no doubt. The new generation of Israelis and Palestinians are now scarred from this latest mess. Rinse and repeat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just months before the Hamas attacks, HRW published the following

"The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability. Israeli forces should end the routine unlawful use of lethal force against Palestinians, including children. Israel’s allies should increase pressure to end the practice."

Not long before, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor published this:

"In 2022, the world saw a dramatic surge in killings of Palestinians, with fatalities in the West Bank climbing 82% from the previous year and nearly quintupling (491%) from 2020."

It's fair to say this generation was already scarred. There's no need to go back to the 1940s or 1950s to understand or explain that. You can't pretend the Hamas attacks happened in a vacuum.

Things don't only happen in Palestine when they're headline news.

KILLING OF PALESTINIANS UP 491% IN THREE YEARS BEFORE the Hamas attacks

Israeli forces should END THE ROUTINE UNLAWFUL USE OF LETHAL FORCE AGAINST Palestinians, including CHILDREN

Unfortunately, it seems that none of that is shocking enough to spark your outrage or capture your attention.


Refs:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/pulling-trigger-first-resort-palestinians-killed-israeli-army-and-settlers-2022-enar#:~:text=Members%20of%20the%20Euro%2DMed,localities%20within%20Israel%20(2.4%25).


posted on 21/1/24

comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 22 minutes ago

I have read about the Balfour treaty and the events since. But I would say Israel could have come into existence, rather than would have.
And it was the holocaust that was the determining factor that made it imperative imo. I also firmly believe that it was right.
But it wasn't done in the best way in terms of the treatment of the Arabs who lived in the territory.
But everyone seems to ignore the hostility of the surrounding countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, why not in Somerset, or around Caen, or even slicing off a lump of Germany?

posted on 22/1/24

comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 22 minutes ago

I have read about the Balfour treaty and the events since. But I would say Israel could have come into existence, rather than would have.
And it was the holocaust that was the determining factor that made it imperative imo. I also firmly believe that it was right.
But it wasn't done in the best way in terms of the treatment of the Arabs who lived in the territory.
But everyone seems to ignore the hostility of the surrounding countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, why not in Somerset, or around Caen, or even slicing off a lump of Germany?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably because thats not where they are from and not their home?

posted on 22/1/24

comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted 14 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 22 minutes ago

I have read about the Balfour treaty and the events since. But I would say Israel could have come into existence, rather than would have.
And it was the holocaust that was the determining factor that made it imperative imo. I also firmly believe that it was right.
But it wasn't done in the best way in terms of the treatment of the Arabs who lived in the territory.
But everyone seems to ignore the hostility of the surrounding countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, why not in Somerset, or around Caen, or even slicing off a lump of Germany?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably because thats not where they are from and not their home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Jews haven't been the majority faith in Palestine for at least 1,500 years. For centuries there was barely any Jewish presence whatsoever in the region - about 2-3% tops between the 15th and 19th centuries - or some 7,000 people at the start of the 19th century.

The idea that people who've inhabited those lands for one and a half millennia should be evicted to allow the return of others who have been there for an equivalent time period ago is just ridiculous.

Makes about as much sense as if there were ethnic Celts in Northwest Spain who suddenly staked a claim to live in Southeast England.

Where's your 'home' then? If it's about ancestral homes we might as well all relocate to Africa.

posted on 22/1/24

Can't disagree with that, it is pretty outrageous to be honest.

posted on 22/1/24

The Jews haven't been the majority faith in Palestine for at least 1,500 years.
_____________
The jews havent been the majority faith anywhere thats the point isnt it? they were exiled and persecuted ever since with no land/country to call their own despite being the first religion of its kind? Israel is the only Jewish state and look what that took to achieve and how long it took and the shocking events that had to happen for it to be so?

I have sympathy for both sides , i think its been handled poorly by all involved too. And ive said before its the innocent in it all that are suffering and have suffered from it all.

posted on 22/1/24

I'm not a Jew....I'm a Roman...


A Roman you say....who was your father..?


Biggus Dickus

posted on 22/1/24

comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted 8 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 21 minutes ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 22 minutes ago

I have read about the Balfour treaty and the events since. But I would say Israel could have come into existence, rather than would have.
And it was the holocaust that was the determining factor that made it imperative imo. I also firmly believe that it was right.
But it wasn't done in the best way in terms of the treatment of the Arabs who lived in the territory.
But everyone seems to ignore the hostility of the surrounding countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, why not in Somerset, or around Caen, or even slicing off a lump of Germany?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably because thats not where they are from and not their home?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Neither was the Middle East for a large amount of people.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted 7 hours, 22 minutes ago
The Jews haven't been the majority faith in Palestine for at least 1,500 years.
_____________
The jews havent been the majority faith anywhere thats the point isnt it? they were exiled and persecuted ever since with no land/country to call their own despite being the first religion of its kind? Israel is the only Jewish state and look what that took to achieve and how long it took and the shocking events that had to happen for it to be so?

I have sympathy for both sides , i think its been handled poorly by all involved too. And ive said before its the innocent in it all that are suffering and have suffered from it all.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why can’t some country in Europe take them in then? It wasn’t the Arabs that killed 6 million of them.

posted on 22/1/24

Does anyone truly think that the Jews would have wanted to live in Germany after the war. They were a diaspora spread around the world, at least there was a connection with Jerusalem and the area around.

posted on 22/1/24

Yes, and plenty did because not all Jews were zionists and many were very nationalistic regarding the countries they were from - it’s why so many actually stayed in Germany, rather than fleeing, when the Naaazis took power, because they were proud Germans.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 37 minutes ago
Yes, and plenty did because not all Jews were zionists and many were very nationalistic regarding the countries they were from - it’s why so many actually stayed in Germany, rather than fleeing, when the Naaazis took power, because they were proud Germans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe that is the case.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone! LAJM! (U6426)
posted 11 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago


The irony of bringing up how long Israel can use the war as an excuse when you continually use the actions in the late 40s and 50s as the reason for terrorism acts on Israel.

Fact here is that until both sides put to bed what has gone before this doesn't end. It is the here and now that matters, not who got what land 70 years ago. A terrorist attack killing 1000+ people in one swoop sets this whole debacle back another 20 years, of that there is no doubt. The new generation of Israelis and Palestinians are now scarred from this latest mess. Rinse and repeat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just months before the Hamas attacks, HRW published the following

"The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability. Israeli forces should end the routine unlawful use of lethal force against Palestinians, including children. Israel’s allies should increase pressure to end the practice."

Not long before, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor published this:

"In 2022, the world saw a dramatic surge in killings of Palestinians, with fatalities in the West Bank climbing 82% from the previous year and nearly quintupling (491%) from 2020."

It's fair to say this generation was already scarred. There's no need to go back to the 1940s or 1950s to understand or explain that. You can't pretend the Hamas attacks happened in a vacuum.

Things don't only happen in Palestine when they're headline news.

KILLING OF PALESTINIANS UP 491% IN THREE YEARS BEFORE the Hamas attacks

Israeli forces should END THE ROUTINE UNLAWFUL USE OF LETHAL FORCE AGAINST Palestinians, including CHILDREN

Unfortunately, it seems that none of that is shocking enough to spark your outrage or capture your attention.


Refs:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/pulling-trigger-first-resort-palestinians-killed-israeli-army-and-settlers-2022-enar#:~:text=Members%20of%20the%20Euro%2DMed,localities%20within%20Israel%20(2.4%25).



----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is just above your vehement condemnation of Hamas for their attack.

posted on 22/1/24

Taking sides is the problem on here, and a much bigger one internationally

posted on 22/1/24

comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 1 minute ago
comment by Ding! Dong! Mourinho's gone!LAJM!(U6426)
posted 11 hours, 39 minutes ago
comment by Cinciwolf----JA06 NFL Fantasy CHAMP 2023 (U11551)
posted 2 hours, 6 minutes ago


The irony of bringing up how long Israel can use the war as an excuse when you continually use the actions in the late 40s and 50s as the reason for terrorism acts on Israel.

Fact here is that until both sides put to bed what has gone before this doesn't end. It is the here and now that matters, not who got what land 70 years ago. A terrorist attack killing 1000+ people in one swoop sets this whole debacle back another 20 years, of that there is no doubt. The new generation of Israelis and Palestinians are now scarred from this latest mess. Rinse and repeat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just months before the Hamas attacks, HRW published the following

"The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability. Israeli forces should end the routine unlawful use of lethal force against Palestinians, including children. Israel’s allies should increase pressure to end the practice."

Not long before, the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor published this:

"In 2022, the world saw a dramatic surge in killings of Palestinians, with fatalities in the West Bank climbing 82% from the previous year and nearly quintupling (491%) from 2020."

It's fair to say this generation was already scarred. There's no need to go back to the 1940s or 1950s to understand or explain that. You can't pretend the Hamas attacks happened in a vacuum.

Things don't only happen in Palestine when they're headline news.

KILLING OF PALESTINIANS UP 491% IN THREE YEARS BEFORE the Hamas attacks

Israeli forces should END THE ROUTINE UNLAWFUL USE OF LETHAL FORCE AGAINST Palestinians, including CHILDREN

Unfortunately, it seems that none of that is shocking enough to spark your outrage or capture your attention.


Refs:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/pulling-trigger-first-resort-palestinians-killed-israeli-army-and-settlers-2022-enar#:~:text=Members%20of%20the%20Euro%2DMed,localities%20within%20Israel%20(2.4%25).



----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is just above your vehement condemnation of Hamas for their attack.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Incidentally I always skip over anything in capitals. It just means the author is shouting.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 37 minutes ago
Yes, and plenty did because not all Jews were zionists and many were very nationalistic regarding the countries they were from - it’s why so many actually stayed in Germany, rather than fleeing, when the Naaazis took power, because they were proud Germans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe that is the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But it was the case. ‘The Jews’ weren’t, and still aren’t, a homogeneous group of Zionists. Many wanted to stay in Europe, and many did, because it was their home. This was the case before, during and after the Holocaust.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 35 seconds ago
comment by manusince52 (U9692)
posted 18 minutes ago
comment by Kobbie The King Mainoo (U10026)
posted 37 minutes ago
Yes, and plenty did because not all Jews were zionists and many were very nationalistic regarding the countries they were from - it’s why so many actually stayed in Germany, rather than fleeing, when the Naaazis took power, because they were proud Germans.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe that is the case.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
But it was the case. ‘The Jews’ weren’t, and still aren’t, a homogeneous group of Zionists. Many wanted to stay in Europe, and many did, because it was their home. This was the case before, during and after the Holocaust.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not talking of before. And how many were left after?

posted on 22/1/24

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/remaining-jewish-population-of-europe-in-1945

This may help

posted on 22/1/24

That link just confirms that plenty remained in Europe and Germany, as I said.

posted on 22/1/24

comment by InBefore (U20589)
posted 14 hours, 25 minutes ago
The Jews haven't been the majority faith in Palestine for at least 1,500 years.
_____________
The jews havent been the majority faith anywhere thats the point isnt it? they were exiled and persecuted ever since with no land/country to call their own despite being the first religion of its kind? Israel is the only Jewish state and look what that took to achieve and how long it took and the shocking events that had to happen for it to be so?

I have sympathy for both sides , i think its been handled poorly by all involved too. And ive said before its the innocent in it all that are suffering and have suffered from it all.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Israel is not a Jewish state. It is a Zionist state that hides behind Judaism whenever their barbaric methods are called into question.

Why are people still struggling to understand there is a difference between Zionism and Judaism?

posted on 22/1/24

Can somebody please show me the page in the Torah where Jews born halfway across the world have birthrights to occupied properties in the Middle East?

Can somebody show me the page in the Torah where an eye is traded for 100 dead babies?

This is not Judaism

posted on 22/1/24

comment by Sheriff JW Pepper (U1007)
posted 9 hours, 37 minutes ago
I'm not a Jew....I'm a Roman...


A Roman you say....who was your father..?


Biggus Dickus
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Naughtius Maximus I think it was

Page 25 of 31

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