Alonso's first and last seasons were his best. He was above average in the other seasons and below average in the season before last.
--------------------
I think Alonso was just getting to what i believe is that world class category. He is not as good as Xavi in that role but the next best thing.
Real seriously benefitted from taking him when they did as his game is not based on pace, they are likely to get another 3 top seasons out of him, maybe more.
The one player who really impresses me though is Seedorf, underrated, very intelligent player, could and maybe should have won even more, but the guy still won 4 European Cups with 3 different clubs, an astonishing feat.
---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRFnsRPOQu8&feature=related
"Xavi wins very few individual awards. - Wrong."
What awards did he win? Tell me. The important ones he finished 2nd and 3rd.
Most of the ones he won are ones we never heard of.
"Then you are asying that Xavi is very good. The professionals recognise this and give it credance by adding him to the UEFA teams of the year and FIFA teams of the year."
Professionals. Still bandying that word around?
"Gerrard was recognised by the very same people but somehow this time they're wrong? Do you know how stupid that makes you look?"
How does that makes me look, stupid simpleton, when I don't agree with your whole point.
I'm merely debating this subject with you for my entertainment.
I told you earlier. I don't use accolades and awards to judge players.
If Messi never won anything, I'd still class him as the best.
"We then have the fact that some of the awards are exactly the same such as coming third in the ballon d'or. You are saying this means the awards mean nothing when in reality he came 2nd and 3rd cos of some players called Messi and Ronaldo."
Doesn't matter. He never won it. So your point on that is moot.
"You literally don't know what you're talking about. All the evidence and facts supports me by you are still insisting that you're correct."
What evidence supports you? Nothing does. All you're doing is falling back on quotes and little awards.
Not everyone agrees with your idiotic warped way of life.
As I said earlier, Man U fans and Gooners can both use quotes of the said players being hailed by "professionals", they don't, as they know that's not how a player is judged.
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
Didn't even read your post. Saw your name and just sighed. No-one agrees with you. You're wrong. Bye.
If I may.
No not really. In fact we let him finish the season early so he could get fit for Spain by having an operation. We did everything for him that he wanted but he played constantly for nearly 3 seasons on the back of being a first team player from the age of 17.
--------------------------------
I do recall the lack of strikers (other than Babel and Kuyt i believe) at the club which meant Torres playing as many games as possible. And i am sure Rafa rushed him back from his operation to play him. In any case Torres was ridiculously good at his peak when playing for you guys.
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
"Didn't even read your post. Saw your name and just sighed. No-one agrees with you. You're wrong. Bye."
By no one. You mean by 'you' and two other Scousers? Great debating there.
Keep falling back on "Zidane said so, so he must be great" argument.
You're a real bright spark.
itsonlyagame - My name's Paul, what am I doing here? (U6426)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a class goal that was! Made it look effortless. A gem of a player.
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
-----------------------------
This does not however mean that English players have ability, if Gerrard could pass like Xavi he would have been the complete midfielder.
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
I'm not just falling back on that and now you're making things up. There are loads of Man Utd fans on here saying the same as me not just two scousers.
You say I'm falling back on multiple awards and stats. What are you basing your opinion on then? Just you watching him? At least I have backed it up with something rather than tenuous aspertions like you.
You're deluded, literally, and wrong. Gerrard was a World class player in his pomp and everyone knows it from the fans, to his peers, to the awarding bodies to his stats.
The funny thing is you'll say that Cazarla is World class I'd bet.
You don't know what you're talking about and you've made your self look a right mug. Show some humility and deal with it.
>>the club which meant Torres playing as many games as possible
So do/did Ronaldo and Messi and Rooney and Gerrard and Henry and and Scholes back in his prime and on and on
Managers play their top players without fail in the league and CL knockouts
Implying Torres is somehow different to all the above is strange. It seems more like looking for something to use as a scapegoat or pass blame after the fact
redconn > (U5676)
^^^ Got to agree with that.
Moreover any burnout or injuries he had were compunded by constantly playing in the summer for Spain and playing so much so early on.
"I'm not just falling back on that and now you're making things up. There are loads of Man Utd fans on here saying the same as me not just two scousers. "
No one apart from your blinkered fellow Scousers jumped into our conversation.
So don't see your point there.
"You say I'm falling back on multiple awards and stats. What are you basing your opinion on then? Just you watching him? At least I have backed it up with something rather than tenuous aspertions like you."
What? So instead of watching games and players, and forming your own opinion on things, you wait for a "professional" to say something?
If that ain't a sheep, I don't know what is.
Aspertion? Is that what Liverpool fans call it when someone disagree with them. God how blinkered are you?
You probably still think Gerrard's world class.
"You're deluded, literally, and wrong. Gerrard was a World class player in his pomp and everyone knows it from the fans, to his peers, to the awarding bodies to his stats."
Fair enough. Gerrard might have been world class in his pomp. Nothing wrong with saying that.
But don't come on here posting award stats and quotes as if that's what player ability is judged on.
"The funny thing is you'll say that Cazarla is World class I'd bet."
Yes I would. I look at player's actual ability. I'd say Agger is world class too.
Didn't read any quotes on that.
"You don't know what you're talking about and you've made your self look a right mug. Show some humility and deal with it."
Yawn. That's all you're doing. Repeating that little paragraph is if it makes it any more valid.
Once again, my point is, when you're judging a player's ability. Please form your own opinion.
Implying Torres is somehow different to all the above is strange. It seems more like looking for something to use as a scapegoat or pass blame after the fact
-------------------------
Players playing regularly is one thing but if there an injury to your star player which means he has to play due to no replacements, then this can cause an affect for his long term form.
My point was that i felt Torres form deteriorated after being rushed too early from injury and the fact that Liverpool got rid of him at the right time as he will never get back to that form of old.
Just on my above point, Gerrard has often said he played with injections when injured, have to admire him for that.
comment by Best Fans - 7 years of lies, BATES OUT (U2196)
posted 5 minutes ago
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
--
I hear this kind of argument a lot, in Spain about Spanish sportspeople too, but imo the exact opposite is what's actually true. Every player will always have his detractors, but to say that the norm is for a country to belittle its own players couldn't be more far removed from the truth. It's quite natural to hold "your own" in greater esteem than the "others" and it doesn't only occur in England, it happens everywhere - in exactly the same way parents tend to see their own kids in a more favourable light than others.
What's true is that there are people who'll rush in to bring down a player when his forms drops or he begins to age but again, it happens everywhere. I imagine that part of the reason is that the media are so far up their ar$es that some people get sick of it.
I think Torres' problems are 95% mental, 5% physical
rounding the keeper and shooting wide with an empty net has nowt to do with an extra yard of pace
he's been frustrated for ages now, you can see it on his face. He used to finish anything near goal.
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
My God.
I do watch him - more than you. World Class.
Lots of fans from various clubs on this thread say he is World class.
Lots of professionals say he is World class.
Lots of awarding bodies say he is World class.
His statistics say he is World class.
Then we have you.
Hmmmm.
"My God.
I do watch him - more than you. World Class.
Lots of fans from various clubs on this thread say he is World class.
Lots of professionals say he is World class.
Lots of awarding bodies say he is World class.
His statistics say he is World class.
Then we have you.
Hmmmm."
Did you read my comment? Clearly you didn't. As you all you do is repeat yourself.
You're a broken record.
Nor do you directly reply to my responses, and miss out important points I made.
So all in all, all you really do is pick parts of my argument.
Whichever one is convenient.
I'll make it simple.
You can say Gerrard was world class in his pomp. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But don't come on here using quotes and accolade as mean for judgement.
If 5 million people make the same stupid point, it's still a stupid point.
Engage that little brain of yours.
Erm noo..
His two good seasons where when we won the CL and when we finished second. I actually watched him and know what I'm talking about. You're trying to basing your opinion of number of starts
His first and last seasons were his best. The rest he was average.
---------------------------------------------
I only pulled out the appearances stats to show you don't quite know Alonso as well as you think.
What do you think prompted me to check his appearances, I knew your comments were nonsense based on what I remember so I confirmed on wiki.
I watched Alonso many times over the years.
If 5 million people make the same stupid point, it's still a stupid point
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
but only in your opinion would it be a stupid point thus the vast majority of people would say that your point is stupid and their opinion is right...thats how opinion works...
so in theory an overwhelming majority would see it as a valid point....
glad I could help
So now you're agreeing with me and saying that during the years that he got those pointless awards he was actually World class afterall.
Never waste my time again.
A long time ago in this thread I asked what made you right and everyone else wrong. Not managed that yet have you.
Do I think he is World class now. No - not really as he's 32. Neithers Scholes but that's moot in this context.
The thing is 5 million people probably do agree with me. They don't with you. You're arrogant to think otherwise.
You are almost literally the only person on this thread who thinks that Gerrard was not World class and now you're changing your tune. How weak. You're a maggot. I imagine that's why I've just seen your own fans asking for you to be banned.
If it looks like a , acts like a and writes like a surfer it's probably a .
You .
I hate it when people pull out the individual awards.
They are won for all sorts of reasons which aren't necessarily what they should be won for e.g. for being the best in a tournament, longevity, the best player in one match, one moment of genius, a moment that typifies the efforts of the team, scoring an important goal, sometimes for no clear reason, just catching the eye or even pity!
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Best CM's ever?
Page 17 of 21
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posted on 4/9/12
Alonso's first and last seasons were his best. He was above average in the other seasons and below average in the season before last.
--------------------
I think Alonso was just getting to what i believe is that world class category. He is not as good as Xavi in that role but the next best thing.
Real seriously benefitted from taking him when they did as his game is not based on pace, they are likely to get another 3 top seasons out of him, maybe more.
posted on 4/9/12
*good few seasons
posted on 4/9/12
The one player who really impresses me though is Seedorf, underrated, very intelligent player, could and maybe should have won even more, but the guy still won 4 European Cups with 3 different clubs, an astonishing feat.
---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRFnsRPOQu8&feature=related
posted on 4/9/12
"Xavi wins very few individual awards. - Wrong."
What awards did he win? Tell me. The important ones he finished 2nd and 3rd.
Most of the ones he won are ones we never heard of.
"Then you are asying that Xavi is very good. The professionals recognise this and give it credance by adding him to the UEFA teams of the year and FIFA teams of the year."
Professionals. Still bandying that word around?
"Gerrard was recognised by the very same people but somehow this time they're wrong? Do you know how stupid that makes you look?"
How does that makes me look, stupid simpleton, when I don't agree with your whole point.
I'm merely debating this subject with you for my entertainment.
I told you earlier. I don't use accolades and awards to judge players.
If Messi never won anything, I'd still class him as the best.
"We then have the fact that some of the awards are exactly the same such as coming third in the ballon d'or. You are saying this means the awards mean nothing when in reality he came 2nd and 3rd cos of some players called Messi and Ronaldo."
Doesn't matter. He never won it. So your point on that is moot.
"You literally don't know what you're talking about. All the evidence and facts supports me by you are still insisting that you're correct."
What evidence supports you? Nothing does. All you're doing is falling back on quotes and little awards.
Not everyone agrees with your idiotic warped way of life.
As I said earlier, Man U fans and Gooners can both use quotes of the said players being hailed by "professionals", they don't, as they know that's not how a player is judged.
posted on 4/9/12
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
Didn't even read your post. Saw your name and just sighed. No-one agrees with you. You're wrong. Bye.
posted on 4/9/12
If I may.
No not really. In fact we let him finish the season early so he could get fit for Spain by having an operation. We did everything for him that he wanted but he played constantly for nearly 3 seasons on the back of being a first team player from the age of 17.
--------------------------------
I do recall the lack of strikers (other than Babel and Kuyt i believe) at the club which meant Torres playing as many games as possible. And i am sure Rafa rushed him back from his operation to play him. In any case Torres was ridiculously good at his peak when playing for you guys.
posted on 4/9/12
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
posted on 4/9/12
"Didn't even read your post. Saw your name and just sighed. No-one agrees with you. You're wrong. Bye."
By no one. You mean by 'you' and two other Scousers? Great debating there.
Keep falling back on "Zidane said so, so he must be great" argument.
You're a real bright spark.
posted on 4/9/12
itsonlyagame - My name's Paul, what am I doing here? (U6426)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a class goal that was! Made it look effortless. A gem of a player.
posted on 4/9/12
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
-----------------------------
This does not however mean that English players have ability, if Gerrard could pass like Xavi he would have been the complete midfielder.
posted on 4/9/12
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
I'm not just falling back on that and now you're making things up. There are loads of Man Utd fans on here saying the same as me not just two scousers.
You say I'm falling back on multiple awards and stats. What are you basing your opinion on then? Just you watching him? At least I have backed it up with something rather than tenuous aspertions like you.
You're deluded, literally, and wrong. Gerrard was a World class player in his pomp and everyone knows it from the fans, to his peers, to the awarding bodies to his stats.
The funny thing is you'll say that Cazarla is World class I'd bet.
You don't know what you're talking about and you've made your self look a right mug. Show some humility and deal with it.
posted on 4/9/12
>>the club which meant Torres playing as many games as possible
So do/did Ronaldo and Messi and Rooney and Gerrard and Henry and and Scholes back in his prime and on and on
Managers play their top players without fail in the league and CL knockouts
Implying Torres is somehow different to all the above is strange. It seems more like looking for something to use as a scapegoat or pass blame after the fact
posted on 4/9/12
redconn > (U5676)
^^^ Got to agree with that.
Moreover any burnout or injuries he had were compunded by constantly playing in the summer for Spain and playing so much so early on.
posted on 4/9/12
"I'm not just falling back on that and now you're making things up. There are loads of Man Utd fans on here saying the same as me not just two scousers. "
No one apart from your blinkered fellow Scousers jumped into our conversation.
So don't see your point there.
"You say I'm falling back on multiple awards and stats. What are you basing your opinion on then? Just you watching him? At least I have backed it up with something rather than tenuous aspertions like you."
What? So instead of watching games and players, and forming your own opinion on things, you wait for a "professional" to say something?
If that ain't a sheep, I don't know what is.
Aspertion? Is that what Liverpool fans call it when someone disagree with them. God how blinkered are you?
You probably still think Gerrard's world class.
"You're deluded, literally, and wrong. Gerrard was a World class player in his pomp and everyone knows it from the fans, to his peers, to the awarding bodies to his stats."
Fair enough. Gerrard might have been world class in his pomp. Nothing wrong with saying that.
But don't come on here posting award stats and quotes as if that's what player ability is judged on.
"The funny thing is you'll say that Cazarla is World class I'd bet."
Yes I would. I look at player's actual ability. I'd say Agger is world class too.
Didn't read any quotes on that.
"You don't know what you're talking about and you've made your self look a right mug. Show some humility and deal with it."
Yawn. That's all you're doing. Repeating that little paragraph is if it makes it any more valid.
Once again, my point is, when you're judging a player's ability. Please form your own opinion.
posted on 4/9/12
Implying Torres is somehow different to all the above is strange. It seems more like looking for something to use as a scapegoat or pass blame after the fact
-------------------------
Players playing regularly is one thing but if there an injury to your star player which means he has to play due to no replacements, then this can cause an affect for his long term form.
My point was that i felt Torres form deteriorated after being rushed too early from injury and the fact that Liverpool got rid of him at the right time as he will never get back to that form of old.
posted on 4/9/12
Just on my above point, Gerrard has often said he played with injections when injured, have to admire him for that.
posted on 4/9/12
comment by Best Fans - 7 years of lies, BATES OUT (U2196)
posted 5 minutes ago
Why do people always downplay English players' ability?
If Steven Gerrard was called Esteban Gerrardo and was from Spain people on here would be raving about him.
--
I hear this kind of argument a lot, in Spain about Spanish sportspeople too, but imo the exact opposite is what's actually true. Every player will always have his detractors, but to say that the norm is for a country to belittle its own players couldn't be more far removed from the truth. It's quite natural to hold "your own" in greater esteem than the "others" and it doesn't only occur in England, it happens everywhere - in exactly the same way parents tend to see their own kids in a more favourable light than others.
What's true is that there are people who'll rush in to bring down a player when his forms drops or he begins to age but again, it happens everywhere. I imagine that part of the reason is that the media are so far up their ar$es that some people get sick of it.
posted on 4/9/12
I think Torres' problems are 95% mental, 5% physical
rounding the keeper and shooting wide with an empty net has nowt to do with an extra yard of pace
he's been frustrated for ages now, you can see it on his face. He used to finish anything near goal.
posted on 4/9/12
Dubbed The New Wenger -Sancti Cazorla (U9163)
My God.
I do watch him - more than you. World Class.
Lots of fans from various clubs on this thread say he is World class.
Lots of professionals say he is World class.
Lots of awarding bodies say he is World class.
His statistics say he is World class.
Then we have you.
Hmmmm.
posted on 4/9/12
"My God.
I do watch him - more than you. World Class.
Lots of fans from various clubs on this thread say he is World class.
Lots of professionals say he is World class.
Lots of awarding bodies say he is World class.
His statistics say he is World class.
Then we have you.
Hmmmm."
Did you read my comment? Clearly you didn't. As you all you do is repeat yourself.
You're a broken record.
Nor do you directly reply to my responses, and miss out important points I made.
So all in all, all you really do is pick parts of my argument.
Whichever one is convenient.
I'll make it simple.
You can say Gerrard was world class in his pomp. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But don't come on here using quotes and accolade as mean for judgement.
If 5 million people make the same stupid point, it's still a stupid point.
Engage that little brain of yours.
posted on 4/9/12
Erm noo..
His two good seasons where when we won the CL and when we finished second. I actually watched him and know what I'm talking about. You're trying to basing your opinion of number of starts
His first and last seasons were his best. The rest he was average.
---------------------------------------------
I only pulled out the appearances stats to show you don't quite know Alonso as well as you think.
What do you think prompted me to check his appearances, I knew your comments were nonsense based on what I remember so I confirmed on wiki.
I watched Alonso many times over the years.
posted on 4/9/12
If 5 million people make the same stupid point, it's still a stupid point
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
but only in your opinion would it be a stupid point thus the vast majority of people would say that your point is stupid and their opinion is right...thats how opinion works...
so in theory an overwhelming majority would see it as a valid point....
glad I could help
posted on 4/9/12
So now you're agreeing with me and saying that during the years that he got those pointless awards he was actually World class afterall.
Never waste my time again.
A long time ago in this thread I asked what made you right and everyone else wrong. Not managed that yet have you.
Do I think he is World class now. No - not really as he's 32. Neithers Scholes but that's moot in this context.
The thing is 5 million people probably do agree with me. They don't with you. You're arrogant to think otherwise.
You are almost literally the only person on this thread who thinks that Gerrard was not World class and now you're changing your tune. How weak. You're a maggot. I imagine that's why I've just seen your own fans asking for you to be banned.
If it looks like a , acts like a and writes like a surfer it's probably a .
You .
posted on 4/9/12
<smileyfail>
posted on 4/9/12
I hate it when people pull out the individual awards.
They are won for all sorts of reasons which aren't necessarily what they should be won for e.g. for being the best in a tournament, longevity, the best player in one match, one moment of genius, a moment that typifies the efforts of the team, scoring an important goal, sometimes for no clear reason, just catching the eye or even pity!
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